No Christology in the Q community

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Bernard Muller
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Re: No Christology in the Q community

Post by Bernard Muller »

to robert j
Without resorting to the later legends and traditions promoted in Acts of the Apostles --- using only Paul’s letters --- can you demonstrate that?
I do not think that Acts is all about later legend and traditions. Some fiction? sure. Many enbellishments? certainly. But some elements of Acts fit well with Galatians & the 2 Corinthians epistles (as long as they are uncombined).
"Luke" could have embellished as saying the early members of the church of Jerusalem were called Christians but did not. But she did, later when the members of church of Antioch, led by non-eyewitnesses of the public life of Jesus, were called that way. So I have no reason to doubt "Luke" on that point.
Beside Acts, that cannot be demonstrated in Paul's letters.

Oops, I think I miss what you were after. Which is: who were these preachers who worked on Paul's converts in Galatia? For sure, they were intend to make these converts practice the whole Law of Moses, maybe up to the point of circumcision. However, I do not see Paul arguing in Galatians that these preachers did not accept Jesus as Christ. So they were most likely Jewish Christians.

Cordially, Bernard
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robert j
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Re: No Christology in the Q community

Post by robert j »

Bernard Muller wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:27 am
Jewish Christians from Antioch were preaching Jesus was the Christ (the "anointed") before Paul did ...
Bernard Muller wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:43 pm
robert j wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:29 am
Without resorting to the later legends and traditions promoted in Acts of the Apostles --- using only Paul’s letters --- can you demonstrate that?
... Beside Acts, that cannot be demonstrated in Paul's letters.

... I do not think that Acts is all about later legend and traditions. Some fiction? sure. Many enbellishments? certainly. But some elements of Acts fit well with Galatians & the 2 Corinthians epistles (as long as they are uncombined) ...
Thanks. I assign a (very) much lower level of reliability to Acts for early Christian history than you, but I think it’s important to occasionally acknowledge our basic assumptions when developing theories. I think Acts can be used as a source for 2nd century church traditions and legends, but is an unreliable source for early Christian history in the extreme.

Bernard Muller wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:43 pm to robert j

Oops, I think I miss what you were after. Which is: who were these preachers who worked on Paul's converts in Galatia? For sure, they were intend to make these converts practice the whole Law of Moses, maybe up to the point of circumcision. However, I do not see Paul arguing in Galatians that these preachers did not accept Jesus as Christ. So they were most likely Jewish Christians.
No, that’s not what I was after. And I don’t think there is any evidence in Galatians that the opponents were Jewish Christians beyond an argument from silence. I think local Jews fit the bill just fine without the need for further assumptions. I’ve addressed this in greater detail previously on this forum --- including the lack of push-back in the letter about Paul’s salvific son of the God of the Jews derived from creative readings of the Jewish scriptures --- but I’m not really interested in delving further into those issues with you now.

Bernard Muller wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:43 pm to robert j

"Luke" could have embellished as saying the early members of the church of Jerusalem were called Christians but did not.
The author of Acts did not name the early believers in Jerusalem “Christians” in his story, but did assigned to them much of the necessary belief system. The author of Acts put all the following words in the mouth of Peter early in the narrative ---

But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: “Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words …

... this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel ... ‘AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.’ ...

… “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know— this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. “But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power …

… “Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. “And so, because he was a prophet and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE, he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY. “This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. “Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear …

… “Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified.” (Acts 2:14-36, NASB)

Last edited by robert j on Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
Bernard Muller
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Re: No Christology in the Q community

Post by Bernard Muller »

To robert j,
It is strange that you have so little trust in 'Acts', and then think the discourses of Peter genuinely describe his Christian Beliefs. I think these discourses were fabricated to make Peter look like a Christian. "Luke" had to, because it would be unthinkable Jesus' eyewitnesses did not become Christians.
I got my arguments about the pillars and their church not being Christians starting here:
http://historical-jesus.info/108.html.
I think local Jews fit the bill just fine without the need for further assumptions
This is also an assumption. Were they even Jews in Galatia, known for its very rural nature?
Gal 5"2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
It does not look here that these preachers wanted to remove "Christ" in the belief of the Christians of Galatia, even if they were circumcised.
And in Gal 1:6-9, Paul is against the gospel of the other preachers, not after they are trying to remove "Christ" in the beliefs of his converts.

Cordially, Bernard
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Michael BG
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Re: No Christology in the Q community

Post by Michael BG »

andrewcriddle wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:22 pm
Michael BG wrote: Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:53 pm
andrewcriddle wrote: Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:36 am As a possible parallel, assuming the same author of Luke and Acts, there is more explicit Christology in Acts and in the first 2 chapters of Luke than in the main section of Luke. Early Christian writers IMO could distinguish between their Christology and their account of the earthly ministry of Jesus.
In Luke there is Christology and the word Christ appears 12 times, if we exclude chapters 1,2 and 24, it appears 8 times – 3:15, 4:41, 9:20, 20:41, 22:67, 23:2, 23:35 and 23:39. Acts I think is a little longer and the word Christ appears 26 times.

I don’t think Mark, Matthew, Luke or John distinguish their Christology between before crucifixion and afterwards.
See for example christology of Acts arguing that Lord is used as a title of Jesus much more in Acts than in Luke.

Andrew Criddle
In Luke Jesus is referred to as Christ and as Lord (even if it is the narrator’s voice). My point was Mark, Matthew, Luke and John do not clearly distinguish between a resurrected Jesus Christ and the earth Jesus with regard to titles. They use titles, which I would conclude were first used to refer to the heavenly resurrected Jesus, for the earthly Jesus. (I don’t find comparisons of Acts and Luke helpful especially as it seems that Moule and Conzelmann disagree on the point you are making.) What about Lk 6:46 for Lord? What about Lk 9:20 for Christ?

Can you set out the case that any of the four do not see Jesus as the Christ during his earthly ministry?
MrMacSon wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:15 pm What "Q Community"? Where? When?
Indeed. When is a question I am asking?

Each gospel is written by somebody from a community. We don’t know for certain where Mark’s community was, or Matthew’s, or Luke’s or John’s. And we don’t know for certain when either? However in this thread I am not interested in wheres and the only whens I am interested in are Q and Paul’s letters. (We should try to date Paul’s letter without using Acts.)
robert j wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:28 pm
Bernard Muller wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:27 am ... I do not think that Acts is all about later legend and traditions. Some fiction? sure. Many enbellishments? certainly. ..
Thanks. I assign a (very) much lower level of reliability to Acts for early Christian history than you, but I think it’s important to occasionally acknowledge our basic assumptions when developing theories.

The author of Acts did not name the early believers in Jerusalem “Christians” in his story, but did assigned to them much of the necessary belief system. The author of Acts put all the following words in the mouth of Peter early in the narrative ---

But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: “Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words …



… Jesus the Nazarene, a man …nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. “But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power …

… “Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. “… “This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. “Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear …

… “Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified.” (Acts 2:14-36, NASB)

I also have a low opinion on the reliability of Acts and I believe Acts and Galatians do not agree therefore nothing that Luke writes about Paul can be assumed to be historical. With regard to what Luke has Peter say, I think there might be earlier traditions behind the words, but Luke has added to them his own Christology.
Bernard Muller wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:33 pm … I think these discourses were fabricated to make Peter look like a Christian. "Luke" had to, because it would be unthinkable Jesus' eyewitnesses did not become Christians.
I got my arguments about the pillars and their church not being Christians …:
I take an opposite position regarding what might be historical.
Bernard Muller
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Re: No Christology in the Q community

Post by Bernard Muller »

Michael BG wrote:
However in this thread I am not interested in wheres and the only whens I am interested in are Q and Paul’s letters. (We should try to date Paul’s letter without using Acts.
I took a lot of trouble to do a lot of investigation about dating Paul's letters, taking out the interpolations and the extracting of the original letters from the canonical epistles to the Corinthians. With the help of some elements of Acts, I got to the point where everything fits very well.
It is explained in http://historical-jesus.info/appb.html and more so in http://historical-jesus.info/appp.html
After all the long and tedious investigative work, here is what I found about the timelines and events of Paul's so-called 2nd and 3rd journeys:
http://historical-jesus.info/44.html

Cordially, Bernard
Last edited by Bernard Muller on Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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robert j
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Re: No Christology in the Q community

Post by robert j »

Bernard Muller wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:33 pm Were they even Jews in Galatia ... ?
Josephus discussed Antiochus III (ca. 241-187 BCE) and the relocation of 2,000 Jewish families from Mesopotamia to the regions of Lydia and Phrygia in Asia Minor, and described the generous grants and benefits to allow them to become well-established ---

“Having been informed that a sedition is arisen in Lydia and Phrygia … it hath been thought proper to remove two thousand families of Jews, with their effects, out of Mesopotamia and Babylon … for I am persuaded that they will be well-disposed guardians of our possessions, because of their piety towards God … that thou remove these Jews, under a promise, that they shall be permitted to use their own laws. And when thou shalt have brought them to the places forementioned thou shalt give everyone of their families a place for building their houses, and a portion of the land for their husbandry, and for the plantation of their vines; and thou shalt discharge them from paying taxes of the fruits of the earth for ten years; and let them have a proper quantity of wheat for the maintenance of their servants, until they receive bread corn out of the earth; also let a sufficient share be given to such as minister to them in the necessaries of life …” (Josephus, Antiquities, XII, chapter 3.4 in this link ---)

http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/text ... ant12.html

That relocation effort could have brought as many as 6,000 to 12,000 Babylonian Jews to regions in Asia Minor.

The ancient Lydian and Phrygian kingdoms had at various times dominated most areas of Asia Minor, along with Persian and Greek conquests. In the 3rd C. BCE, Celtic tribes migrated into areas once dominated by Phrygia. The ethnic Celts --- called Galatians --- dominated many portions of Asia Minor over various periods. Celtic archeological sites and place names --- from prior to and during Paul’s times --- are common throughout much of Asia Minor.

By the time of Paul, well-established communities of Babylonian Jews were likely rubbing elbows with communities of ethnic Galatians and other pagan peoples over large portions of Asia Minor.

Philo of Alexandria wrote that in his day there were many Jews in Asia Minor. (Don’t have time to find the specific citation).

The Encyclopedia Judaica describes the liberal attitude of Jews in Asia Minor toward the Gentile “God fearers” (but for Gentile "God-fearers" to claim that they could be full participants with the people of Israel without being circumcised would likely be a bridge too-far for most any Jew in those times) ---

Jewish customs became popular throughout the towns of Asia Minor. Josephus reports that the kindling of Sabbath lights was customary among Gentiles. Many attended synagogues on Sabbaths and festivals. A movement of worshipers of the Supreme God, "God fearers" (σεβόμενοι, φοβούμενοι τὸν θεόν) was very popular throughout Asia Minor, and many groups of pagans practiced the cult of the "Supreme God" without renouncing their own religions.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/asia-minor

Some of these accounts may not be entirely historically accurate. But the possibility that in Paul's time there were no Jews in the Province of Galatia or in some contact with ethnic Galatians is very unlikely.

This thread is about “Q”, and I’m going to move on now. I’ll leave the last words here to you should you wish to respond.
Michael BG
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Re: No Christology in the Q community

Post by Michael BG »

Bernard Muller wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:52 pm Michael BG wrote:
However in this thread I am not interested in wheres and the only whens I am interested in are Q and Paul’s letters. (We should try to date Paul’s letter without using Acts.
I took a lot of trouble to do a lot of investigation about dating Paul's letters, taking out the interpolations and the extracting of the original letters from the canonical epistles to the Corinthians. With the help of some elements of Acts, I got to the point where everything fits very well.
It is explained in http://historical-jesus.info/appb.html and more so in http://historical-jesus.info/appp.html
After all the long and tedious investigative work, here is what I found about the timelines and events of Paul's so-called 2nd and 3rd journeys:
http://historical-jesus.info/44.html

Cordially, Bernard
The only pieces of dating information to the outside world that I see in Paul’s letter are the existence of “Christians” in Jerusalem and a king called Aretas (2 Cor. 11:32). Therefore we can concluded only that Jerusalem had not been besieged when Paul wrote and it is unlikely that the Jewish revolt had started. If we assume that 2 Cor. 11:32 was written by Paul then we can assume that Paul became a Christian before 40 CE. I read Galatians 1 and 2 to mean that it was 17 years after Paul was last in Damascus. So it could be as late as just after 57 CE that Paul left Antioch after his version of Christianity had been rejected and his split from Barnabas. From then on it seems that Timothy is Paul’s main assistant. It seems that only after the split from Barnabas did Paul work in Asia Minor and Greece. Therefore his last letter could have been written in 65 CE. If we assume that Christians were being blamed for the fire of Rome in 64 CE, then 63 might be the more logical end date for dating Paul’s letters. If we date Paul’s conversion to 36 CE then his moving on from Antioch would happen after 53 CE.
robert j
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Re: No Christology in the Q community

Post by robert j »

robert j wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:02 pm
Philo of Alexandria wrote that in his day there were many Jews in Asia Minor. (Don’t have time to find the specific citation).
That's in Philo, On the Embassy to Gaius, 33.245 "... vast numbers of Jews scattered over every city of Asia ..." and 36.281 "...of Judea ... the colonies it has sent out from time to time into ... regions of Pamphylia, Cilicia, the greater part of Asia Minor ... and the furthermost corners of Pontus."


And now I am moving on.
Bernard Muller
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Re: No Christology in the Q community

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Michael BG,
The only pieces of dating information to the outside world that I see in Paul’s letter are the existence of “Christians” in Jerusalem and a king called Aretas (2 Cor. 11:32). Therefore we can concluded only that Jerusalem had not been besieged when Paul wrote and it is unlikely that the Jewish revolt had started. If we assume that 2 Cor. 11:32 was written by Paul then we can assume that Paul became a Christian before 40 CE. I read Galatians 1 and 2 to mean that it was 17 years after Paul was last in Damascus. So it could be as late as just after 57 CE that Paul left Antioch after his version of Christianity had been rejected and his split from Barnabas. From then on it seems that Timothy is Paul’s main assistant. It seems that only after the split from Barnabas did Paul work in Asia Minor and Greece. Therefore his last letter could have been written in 65 CE. If we assume that Christians were being blamed for the fire of Rome in 64 CE, then 63 might be the more logical end date for dating Paul’s letters. If we date Paul’s conversion to 36 CE then his moving on from Antioch would happen after 53 CE.
Suit yourself. Obviously you did not want to read my in-depth study.
Paul never called any member of the church of Jerusalem to be "brothers" or "in Christ". And that's only one argument among many against those being Christians.
I found 35 for Paul's conversion,
52 for the council of Jerusalem, and Paul's dispute with Peter in Antioch, and the start of the 3rd journey.
57 for Paul last letter (Romans) (and 50 for his first one: 1 Thessalonians).

No assumptions here, just hard work.

Cordially, Bernard
Last edited by Bernard Muller on Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DCHindley
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Re: No Christology in the Q community

Post by DCHindley »

robert j wrote: Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:12 am
robert j wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:02 pm
Philo of Alexandria wrote that in his day there were many Jews in Asia Minor. (Don’t have time to find the specific citation).
That's in Philo, On the Embassy to Gaius, 33.245 "... vast numbers of Jews scattered over every city of Asia ..." and 36.281 "...of Judea ... the colonies it has sent out from time to time into ... regions of Pamphylia, Cilicia, the greater part of Asia Minor ... and the furthermost corners of Pontus."
The first "modern" inquiry into the historical situation in Asia Minor was J B Lightfoot's St. Paul's Epistle to the Galatians: A Revised Text with Introduction, Notes and Dissertations (1865, I think). Anyone can find a new or remaindered reprint for maybe $5.00 US, and all four of his commentaries are often bundled together as a set for something like $25.00 US.

On the other hand, it is a burden to read through stuff like that. Yow.

DCH
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