The Shroud and Historicity

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Ulan
Posts: 1505
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:58 am

Re: The Shroud and Historicity

Post by Ulan »

iskander wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:23 am Relics are a discredited witness because ,the church is an untrustworthy witness .
Not even the church considers this item to be a relic.
pavurcn
Posts: 84
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:45 pm

Re: The Shroud and Historicity

Post by pavurcn »

To JW:

1) Credible, multiple, independent carbon dating to 14th century?

No: See this.

As I said at the very beginning of this thread: "The radio-carbon dating of a repair-flap from the edge of the cloth does not disauthenticate the Shroud."

2) Epic failure for every standard forensic test for blood?

No: See this. And here's a story from this year.

3) Determination that the entire image consists of paint materials?

No. There is paint everywhere because painted images were touched to the surface but the image does not consist of paint.
Schwortz was the documenting photographer for the Shroud of Turin research project in 1978. He said his team was the first to perform in-depth and hands-on studies of the shroud.

“I got to be in the room with this piece of cloth for five days and nights, hands on,” Schwortz said. “We are the only ones in its history to be given that (sort of) access to it.

“We were there to determine how the image was formed, we failed in that (but) we were able to determine what it was not … it was not a painting, it was not a photograph, it was not a scorch, it’s not a rubbing … those are all the conventional ways.”

Quoted from here.

4) Extant contemporary investigation by Church with confession of painting by 14th century artist?

Not probative. Are we sure that this was the exact the same shroud under investigation? Were there other political motivations in play? Skepticism in an age of relic-making was perfectly justified...but contemporary examination has a better chance of determining the truth.

Look to the science. Subject the science itself to scrutiny. Admit where there is still a mystery.
iskander
Posts: 2091
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Re: The Shroud and Historicity

Post by iskander »

Factory of mysteries .

The RCC is the inventor of worthless doctrines for burning the inevitable 'heretics' : Mary gave birth , but her anatomy did not record this event.


CCC
Mary - "ever-virgin"
499 The deepening of faith in the virginal motherhood led the Church to confess Mary's real and perpetual virginity even in the act of giving birth to the Son of God made man.154

In fact, Christ's birth "did not diminish his mother's virginal integrity but sanctified it."155

And so the liturgy of the Church celebrates Mary as Aeiparthenos, the "Ever-virgin".156

510 Mary "remained a virgin in conceiving her Son, a virgin in giving birth to him, a virgin in carrying him, a virgin in nursing him at her breast, always a virgin" (St. Augustine, Serm. 186, 1: PL 38, 999): with her whole being she is "the handmaid of the Lord" (Lk 1:38).
iskander
Posts: 2091
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Re: The Shroud and Historicity

Post by iskander »

A Protestant Allegory

https://www.royalcollection.org.uk/coll ... t-allegory

The names of the four evangelists are written clearly on the stones when the image is magnified .

The painting was painted by an Italian and it simply reflects the cruelty of the time. He found avarice and cruelty and that is what his painting says.
semiopen
Posts: 471
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:27 pm

Re: The Shroud and Historicity

Post by semiopen »

pavurcn wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:06 am
2) Epic failure for every standard forensic test for blood?

No: See this. And here's a story from this year.
The "blood" is technically interesting.

At first, Yoshkeologists were quite certain that the blood was type AB.

The first guy to test it, I think, was a religious cop in Rome. Really breathtaking imagining a mind that would think of getting a CSI guy to test something that old. Presumably a similarly silly test found AB on the shmata of Oviedo Sudarium_of_Oviedo. That would have been cool if the whole song and dance had been true. Probably type AB didn't exist during the time of Yoshke, so even the winning argument (Yoshke had blood type AB) was losing, and now that the AB silliness has been discredited, the possibility that there is blood on the Shroud (the link is sort of dishonest in it's presentation) is hardly of any interest.

The really fascinating part of the blood type tests is that apparently whatever cops do to determine blood type will result in blood type AB on very old samples.
iskander
Posts: 2091
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Re: The Shroud and Historicity

Post by iskander »

pavurcn wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:36 am
iskander wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:24 am The truth is out here: Redemption is a fraud.
Theologies and rhetorics of redemption differ. ....

Redemption is a fraud :The RCC says Redemption is the property of the chaste wife of Jesus Christ .
According to Pius XII . in the encyclical Mediator Dei, Redemption was only a wedding gift for the pope.
Is the shroud of Turin a part of the" immense treasure of redemption"?


MEDIATOR DEI
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII ON THE SACRED LITURGY TO THE VENERABLE BRETHREN, THE PATRIARCHS, PRIMATES, ARCHBISHOPS, BISHIOPS, AND OTHER ORDINARIES IN PEACE AND COMMUNION WITH THE APOSTOLIC SEE


"We have already explained sufficiently and of set purpose on another occasion, that Jesus Christ "when dying on the cross, bestowed upon His Church, as a completely gratuitous gift, the immense treasure of the redemption. But when it is a question of distributing this treasure, He not only commits the work of sanctification to His Immaculate Spouse, but also wishes that, to a certain extent, sanctity should derive from her activity."[75]"
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
Posts: 2110
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:19 pm
Location: Leipzig, Germany
Contact:

Re: The Shroud and Historicity

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

pavurcn wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:51 am Well I certainly can agree that there is an image on the Shroud. The positioning of the body has also been studied. There are uneven proportions that you might not expect in a straight out painting. Some research is available here.
:mrgreen: I do not think that "some research" is needed. Even schoolkids can understand it.

The image on the shroud should look like this mask.

Image
But it looks like a painting or a photo

Image

User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: The Shroud and Historicity

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:49 am
pavurcn wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:51 am Well I certainly can agree that there is an image on the Shroud. The positioning of the body has also been studied. There are uneven proportions that you might not expect in a straight out painting. Some research is available here.
:mrgreen: I do not think that "some research" is needed. Even schoolkids can understand it.

The image on the shroud should look like this mask.

Image
But it looks like a painting or a photo

Image

Image
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
Ulan
Posts: 1505
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:58 am

Re: The Shroud and Historicity

Post by Ulan »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:49 am
pavurcn wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:51 am Well I certainly can agree that there is an image on the Shroud. The positioning of the body has also been studied. There are uneven proportions that you might not expect in a straight out painting. Some research is available here.
:mrgreen: I do not think that "some research" is needed. Even schoolkids can understand it.

The image on the shroud should look like this mask.

Image
But it looks like a painting or a photo

Image

Yup. This is very easy to understand for anyone who thinks for a moment what a shroud actually does.
pavurcn
Posts: 84
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:45 pm

Re: The Shroud and Historicity

Post by pavurcn »

Looks like shroud specialists talk about vertical directionality and the production of the image, at least here and here.

This has all been very interesting, but I will leave the further researching to those who want to do it.

My original point was that IF the shroud is another witness to gospel events, then we have a new light on the historical weight of the texts, another factor to absorb and integrate into our interpretations. OF COURSE if you don't believe the shroud is an authentic witness you are not going to have that view.

The controversy about the Shroud continues, with scientists on both sides. (And some people honestly think it is all very much over....good for you!) I very much like Dan Porter's summary statement at his website, which faithfully posted pro and con articles on the Shroud. I'll just quote part, but the whole short column is worth reading:
No one has a good idea how front and back images of a crucified man came to be on the cloth. Yes, it is possible to create images that look similar. But no one has created images that match the chemistry, peculiar superficiality and profoundly mysterious three-dimensional information content of the images on the Shroud. Again, this is all published in peer-reviewed scientific journals.

We simply do not have enough reliable information to arrive at a scientifically rigorous conclusion. Years ago, as a skeptic of the Shroud, I came to realize that while I might believe it was a fake, I could not know so from the facts. Now, as someone who believes it is the real burial shroud of Jesus of Nazareth, I similarly realize that a leap of faith over unanswered questions is essential.
Shalom!
Post Reply