Why Are Historicists So Certain That Jesus Existed?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Why Are Historicists So Certain That Jesus Existed?

Post by MrMacSon »

robert j wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:05 pm
Paul used the Jewish scriptures to construct his system, and his own backstory ...

Paul used “... has been written” 31 times, all referring to the Jewish scriptures.
Yep -

1. Midrash aggadah - narrative midrash: "interpreting biblical narrative, exploring questions of ethics or theology, or creating homilies & parables based on the texts"; and

2. Midrash halacha - attempting "to clarify or extend a law beyond the conditions assumed in the Hebrew Bible, and to make connections between then current practice and the biblical text. It made possible the creation and acceptance of new liturgies and rituals which de facto replaced sacrificial worship after the fall of the Second Temple" (and, for Judaism, "the maintenance of continuity by linking those practices to the words of the Torah", but that would not have happened in the development of or application to Christianity).

These are general categorisations: each tends to contain components of the other.

Interestingly, "Midrash halacha from the two centuries following the fall of the Temple was collected in three books — the Mekhilta on Exodus, the Sifra [book] on Leviticus, and the Sifrei [books] on Numbers and Deuteronomy — known as the tannaitic midrashim. (The tannaim [tanna, sing.] were the rabbis from the time of the Mishnah, edited in approximately 200 CE.)" - https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/midrash-101/

and, 'Midrash Aggadah', "The type of midrash most commonly referred to (as in, “There is a midrash which says…”) is from the collections of midrash aggadah, most of which were compiled between about 200 and 1000 C.E. (Many midrashim circulated orally before then). Midrash aggadah may begin its exploration with any word or verse in the Bible. There are many different methods of interpretation and exposition."
  • and, ".. midrash aggadah also appears throughout the two Talmuds. Midrash Rabbah, the “Great Midrash,” is the name of the collections linked to the five books of the Torah and the “Five Scrolls” (Esther, Song of Songs, Ruth, Lamentations, and Ecclesiastes) read on holidays. Some of these works read like verse-by-verse commentaries. Others may have originated in sermons linked to the weekly Torah reading."
    https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/midrash-101/

Much Aggadah, often mixed with foreign elements, is found in the Apocrypha, the Pseudepigrapha, the works of Josephus and Philo, and the remaining Judæo-Hellenistic literature; but aggadic exegesis reached its highest development in the great epoch of the Mishnaic-Talmudic period, between 100 and 550 CE.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aggadah#Development

.
Akiva ben Yosef (Hebrew: עקיבא בן יוסף‎‎‎, c. 50–135 CE) widely known as Rabbi Akiva (רבי עקיבא‎), was a tanna of the latter part of the first century and the beginning of the second century (the third tannaitic generation). Rabbi Akiva was a leading contributor to the Mishnah and to Midrash halakha. He is referred to in the Talmud as Rosh la-Hakhamim, "Chief of the Sages". He was executed by the Romans in the aftermath of the Bar Kokhba revolt ...


The greatest tannaim of the middle of the second century came from Akiva's school, notably Rabbi Meir, Judah bar Ilai, Simeon bar Yochai, Jose ben Halafta, Eleazar ben Shammai, and Rabbi Nehemiah. Besides these, Akiva had many disciples whose names have not been handed down, but the Aggadah variously gives their number as 12,000, 24,000, and 48,000.


Biblical Canon
Akiva was instrumental in drawing up the canon of the Tanakh. He protested strongly against the canonicity of certain of the Apocrypha, the Wisdom of Sirach, for instance, in which passages קורא is to be explained according to Ḳid. 49a, and חיצונים according to its Aramaic equivalent ברייתא; so that Akiva's utterance reads, "He who reads aloud in the synagogue from books not belonging to the canon as if they were canonical," etc. But he was not opposed to a private reading of the Apocrypha, as is evident from the fact that he himself makes frequent use of Sirach. Akiva stoutly defended, however, the canonicity of the Song of Songs, and Esther ...

Aquila, meanwhile, was a disciple of Akiva and, under Akiva's guidance, gave the Greek-speaking Jews a rabbinical Bible. Akiva probably also provided for a revised text of the Targums; certainly, for the essential base of the Targum Onkelos, which in matters of Halakah reflects Akiva's opinions completely.

Akiva as systematizer
Akiva worked in the domain of the Halakha, both in the systematization of its traditional material and in its further development. The condition of the Halakah, that is, of religious praxis, and indeed of Judaism in general, was a very precarious one at the turn of the 1st century of the common era ... The Jewish Encyclopedia states that according to a tradition which has historical confirmation, it was Akiva who systematized and brought into methodic arrangement the Mishnah, or Halakah codex; the Midrash, or the exegesis of the Halakah; and the Halakot, the logical amplification of the Halakah.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbi_Akiva
.

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MrMacSon
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Re: Why Are Historicists So Certain That Jesus Existed?

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After the First Jewish–Roman War in 70 CE, with the end of the Second Temple Jewish center in Jerusalem, Jewish social and legal norms were in upheaval. The Rabbis were faced with the new reality of Judaism without a Temple (to serve as the center of teaching and study) and Judea without autonomy. It is during this period that Rabbinic discourse began to be recorded in writing. The possibility was felt that the details of the oral traditions of the Pharisees from the Second Temple period (530s BCE – 70 CE) would be forgotten, so the justification was found to have these oral laws transcribed.

Over time, different traditions of the Oral Law came into being, raising problems of interpretation. According to the Mevo Hatalmud many rulings were given in a specific context, but would be taken out of it; or a ruling was revisited but the second ruling would not become popularly known. To correct this, [in the 3rd century] Judah the Prince took up the redaction of the Mishnah. If a point was of no conflict, he kept its language; where there was conflict, he reordered the opinions and ruled; and he clarified where context was not given. The idea was not to use his own discretion, but rather to examine the tradition as far back as he could, and only supplement as required.


Authorship
...approximately 120 [Tannaim] are known. The period during which the Mishnah was assembled spanned about 130 years, or five generations, in the first and second centuries CE. Judah the Prince is credited with the final redaction and publication of the Mishnah ...

There are also references to the "Mishnah of Rabbi Akiva", suggesting a still earlier collection; on the other hand, these references may simply mean his teachings in general. Another possibility is that Rabbi Akiva and Rabbi Meir established the divisions and order of subjects in the Mishnah, making them the authors of a school curriculum rather than of a book.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mishnah
robert j
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Re: Why Are Historicists So Certain That Jesus Existed?

Post by robert j »

MrMacSon wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:59 pm
robert j wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:05 pm
Paul used the Jewish scriptures to construct his system, and his own backstory ...

Paul used “... has been written” 31 times, all referring to the Jewish scriptures.
Yep -

1. Midrash aggadah - narrative midrash: "interpreting biblical narrative, exploring questions of ethics or theology, or creating homilies & parables based on the texts"; and

2. Midrash halacha - attempting "to clarify or extend a law beyond the conditions assumed in the Hebrew Bible, and to make connections between then current practice and the biblical text. It made possible the creation and acceptance of new liturgies and rituals which de facto replaced sacrificial worship after the fall of the Second Temple" (and, for Judaism, "the maintenance of continuity by linking those practices to the words of the Torah", but that would not have happened in the development of or application to Christianity).

These are general categorisations: each tends to contain components of the other.

Interestingly, "Midrash halacha from the two centuries following the fall of the Temple was collected in three books — the Mekhilta on Exodus, the Sifra [book] on Leviticus, and the Sifrei [books] on Numbers and Deuteronomy — known as the tannaitic midrashim. (The tannaim [tanna, sing.] were the rabbis from the time of the Mishnah, edited in approximately 200 CE .)" - https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/midrash-101/

and, 'Midrash Aggadah', "The type of midrash most commonly referred to (as in, “There is a midrash which says…”) is from the collections of midrash aggadah, most of which were compiled between about 200 and 1000 C.E. (Many midrashim circulated orally before then). Midrash aggadah may begin its exploration with any word or verse in the Bible. There are many different methods of interpretation and exposition."
  • and, ".. midrash aggadah also appears throughout the two Talmuds. Midrash Rabbah, the “Great Midrash,” is the name of the collections linked to the five books of the Torah and the “Five Scrolls” (Esther, Song of Songs, Ruth, Lamentations, and Ecclesiastes) read on holidays. Some of these works read like verse-by-verse commentaries. Others may have originated in sermons linked to the weekly Torah reading."
    https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/midrash-101/

Much Aggadah, often mixed with foreign elements, is found in the Apocrypha, the Pseudepigrapha, the works of Josephus and Philo, and the remaining Judæo-Hellenistic literature; but aggadic exegesis reached its highest development in the great epoch of the Mishnaic-Talmudic period, between 100 and 550 CE.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aggadah#Development

.
Akiva ben Yosef (Hebrew: עקיבא בן יוסף‎‎‎, c. 50–135 CE) widely known as Rabbi Akiva (רבי עקיבא‎), was a tanna of the latter part of the first century and the beginning of the second century (the third tannaitic generation). Rabbi Akiva was a leading contributor to the Mishnah and to Midrash halakha. He is referred to in the Talmud as Rosh la-Hakhamim, "Chief of the Sages". He was executed by the Romans in the aftermath of the Bar Kokhba revolt ...


The greatest tannaim of the middle of the second century came from Akiva's school, notably Rabbi Meir, Judah bar Ilai, Simeon bar Yochai, Jose ben Halafta, Eleazar ben Shammai, and Rabbi Nehemiah. Besides these, Akiva had many disciples whose names have not been handed down, but the Aggadah variously gives their number as 12,000, 24,000, and 48,000.


Biblical Canon
Akiva was instrumental in drawing up the canon of the Tanakh. He protested strongly against the canonicity of certain of the Apocrypha, the Wisdom of Sirach, for instance, in which passages קורא is to be explained according to Ḳid. 49a, and חיצונים according to its Aramaic equivalent ברייתא; so that Akiva's utterance reads, "He who reads aloud in the synagogue from books not belonging to the canon as if they were canonical," etc. But he was not opposed to a private reading of the Apocrypha, as is evident from the fact that he himself makes frequent use of Sirach. Akiva stoutly defended, however, the canonicity of the Song of Songs, and Esther ...

Aquila, meanwhile, was a disciple of Akiva and, under Akiva's guidance, gave the Greek-speaking Jews a rabbinical Bible. Akiva probably also provided for a revised text of the Targums; certainly, for the essential base of the Targum Onkelos, which in matters of Halakah reflects Akiva's opinions completely.

Akiva as systematizer
Akiva worked in the domain of the Halakha, both in the systematization of its traditional material and in its further development. The condition of the Halakah, that is, of religious praxis, and indeed of Judaism in general, was a very precarious one at the turn of the 1st century of the common era ... The Jewish Encyclopedia states that according to a tradition which has historical confirmation, it was Akiva who systematized and brought into methodic arrangement the Mishnah, or Halakah codex; the Midrash, or the exegesis of the Halakah; and the Halakot, the logical amplification of the Halakah.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbi_Akiva
.

Your “Yep” here seems to me a bit disingenuous in relation to the point of my post. You left out this part ---
robert j wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:05 pm This is, I think, among the most primitive of Christian materials, and part of the well-spring, the source, of subsequent Christian writings.
Some aspects of Midrash Aggadah are pertinent to Paul’s methodology, but I prefer to describe his methodology a bit differently --- (from another thread) ---
robert j wrote: Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:31 pm That Paul used the OT is not disputed. Some direct parallels are found, but typologies, symbolism, and creative readings are more prevalent. And of course, Paul freely substituted his Lord Jesus Christ for the OT Lord (Yahweh) when it suited his need.
I highlighted in yellow some portions of the material you cut-and–pasted above --- these show the relatively late nature of these traditions. You may find such second-century and later traditions pertinent for understanding Paul’s letters, but I rarely do.

Most of the remainder of your cut-and pasting seems to me to have little relevance to the point of my post for which you provided a response. (although I think the phrase I highlighted in blue is interesting).
Secret Alias
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Re: Why Are Historicists So Certain That Jesus Existed?

Post by Secret Alias »

'Paul' = the orthodox 'Paul.' Give me a break.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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MrMacSon
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Re: Why Are Historicists So Certain That Jesus Existed?

Post by MrMacSon »

robert j wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:07 pm
Your “Yep” here seems to me a bit disingenuous in relation to the point of my post.
Initially, my response was going to be a one sentence reference to midrash. Then I researched to see if I was using the term correctly or whether I should be clarifying that one word. Then it become a repository for what I found pertinent to the wider point of mid-rash paralleling the start of Christianity (see below).


robert j wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:07 pm I highlighted in yellow some portions of the material you cut-and–pasted above --- these show the relatively late nature of these traditions.
Yes, but the time-period references in the passage quoted are not reflective of the general commentary that midrash started in the mid-first century with Rabbi Akiva as a response to the loss of the Jewish Oral traditions which had been centred on the Temple (which correlates with what you highlighted in blue).

Sorry to have hijacked your post.
robert j
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Re: Why Are Historicists So Certain That Jesus Existed?

Post by robert j »

Secret Alias wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:37 pm
Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind ... Give me a break.
Break granted.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Why Are Historicists So Certain That Jesus Existed?

Post by MrMacSon »

robert j wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:07 pm
Some aspects of Midrash Aggadah are pertinent to Paul’s methodology, but I prefer to describe his methodology a bit differently --- (from another thread) ---
robert j wrote: Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:31 pm That Paul used the OT is not disputed. Some direct parallels are found, but typologies, symbolism, and creative readings are more prevalent. And of course, Paul freely substituted his Lord Jesus Christ for the OT Lord (Yahweh) when it suited his need1.
1 It's possible the Pauline texts were mostly or originally referring to the OT Lord (Yahweh) primarily or a general Christ, and references or allusions to Jesus reflect evolution of his theology or later additions [redactions, even].
robert j
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Re: Why Are Historicists So Certain That Jesus Existed?

Post by robert j »

MrMacSon wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:07 pm
robert j wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:07 pm
Some aspects of Midrash Aggadah are pertinent to Paul’s methodology, but I prefer to describe his methodology a bit differently --- (from another thread) ---
robert j wrote: Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:31 pm That Paul used the OT is not disputed. Some direct parallels are found, but typologies, symbolism, and creative readings are more prevalent. And of course, Paul freely substituted his Lord Jesus Christ for the OT Lord (Yahweh) when it suited his need1.
1 It's possible the Pauline texts were mostly or originally referring to the OT Lord (Yahweh) primarily or a general Christ, and references or allusions to Jesus reflect evolution of his theology or later additions [redactions, even].
Sure, it's possible. But if the Pauline texts were about a salvific "general Christ", then the name Jesus would be a natural fit for Paul's Lord Jesus Christ right from the start ---

.. Joshua means "the salvation of the Lord," being the name of the most excellent possible character ... (Philo, On the Change of Names,122)

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MrMacSon
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Re: Why Are Historicists So Certain That Jesus Existed?

Post by MrMacSon »

robert j wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:35 pm
... if the Pauline texts were about a salvific "general Christ", then the name Jesus would be a natural fit for Paul's Lord Jesus Christ right from the start --
.. Joshua means "the salvation of the Lord," being the name of the most excellent possible character ... (Philo, On the Change of Names,122)

Fair point.
pavurcn
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Re: Why Are Historicists So Certain That Jesus Existed?

Post by pavurcn »

Kapyong wrote: Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:51 pm Gday all,
Secret Alias wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:58 pm What accounts for their certainty?
The weight of tradition,
the tendency to go along with everyone else,
the embarassment of admitting error,
the comfort of being right on this crucial issue,
the enormous cultural baggage of Jesus being 'our' God,
and the fear of the social chaos that would follow if they are shown wrong.


Kapyong
Or, perhaps....
  • The validity of trustworthy and honorable witnesses in continuity over time,
  • the corporate witness of the churches with many historical connections to the earliest generations (--in certain respects they had much more information than we can possibly have),
  • respect for the truth, especially when it has been verified by multiple sources, even in the face of persecution and death,
  • the satisfaction of rejecting irresponsible, fanciful, self-interested error and the human tendency to deny and escape reality,
  • the desire for the social unity and fulfillment of the human vocation that they sense is implicated in this revelation and partially experienceable in the lives of the authentically converted,
  • and, as I said before, the datum of a brilliant new voice and vision that makes sense of and builds on the past revelation into a larger and deeper range of spiritual life full of faith, hope, love.
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