Why Are Historicists So Certain That Jesus Existed?

[Secret Alias]

Exactly. Like Pringles, you just can't have one.

[Bernard Muller]

In Marcion there is only Jesus Christ, an angel descended from heaven.
No John, no baptism, no adoptionism.

John the Baptist is featured in Marcion's gospel. And in it, Jesus does not appear to be like an angel on earth, but rather in a very human-like physical body.

Cordially, Bernard

[Giuseppe]

The general tenor, Bernard, the general tenor (see my quote in a previous post).

Even if the general tenor in the Pauline epistles and 'Hebrews" is about a heavenly god (because that's where & what Jesus was allegedly at the times of writing), that does not mean these epistles are silent about a human earthly crucified Jew called Jesus.

Cordially, Bernard

Even if the general tenor in the stories about Attis is about a heavenly god (because that's where & what Attis was allegedly at the times of writing), that does not mean these stories are silent about a human earthly phrygian young called Attis.

[Giuseppe]

In Marcion there is only Jesus Christ, an angel descended from heaven.
No John, no baptism, no adoptionism.

John the Baptist is featured in Marcion's gospel. And in it, Jesus does not appear to be like an angel on earth, but rather in a very human-like physical body.

Cordially, Bernard

but John the Baptist is not in the incipit of the Marcion's gospel.

Jesus appeared in appearance of men, not really a man. Not even one coming from Nazaret.

[Secret Alias]

Listen to the certainty. 'John the Baptist is in the gospel of Marcion.' 'John the Baptist isn't in the gospel of Marcion.' Both equally certain.

[Bernard Muller]

Even if the general tenor in the stories about Attis is about a heavenly god (because that's where & what Attis was allegedly at the times of writing), that does not mean these stories are silent about a human earthly phrygian young called Attis.

Most stories about Attis are about him as a human on earth:

"And, much earlier (and closer to Paul's times!), around 150 CE, this is what Pausanias wrote in 'Description of Greece', 7, 17, 9-13:
"The people of Dyme have a temple of Athena with an extremely ancient image; they have as well a sanctuary built for the Dindymenian mother and Attis. As to Attis, I could learn no secret about him, but Hermesianax, the elegiac poet [330 BCE], says in a poem that he was the son of Galaus the Phrygian, and that he was a eunuch from birth. The account of Hermesianax goes on to say that, on growing up, Attis migrated to Lydia and celebrated for the Lydians the orgies of the Mother; that he rose to such honor with her that Zeus, being wroth at it, sent a boar to destroy the tillage of the Lydians. Then certain Lydians, with Attis himself, were killed by the boar, and it is consistent with this that the Gauls who inhabit Pessinus abstain from pork. But the current view about Attis is different,
[the tale then got considerably embellished & modified! Let's also notice the first account is humanly plausible (except for the killer boar, likely imported from Adonis' legend)]
the local legend about him being this. Zeus, it is said, let fall in his sleep seed upon the ground, which in course of time sent up a demon, with two sexual organs, male and female. They call the demon Agdistis. But the gods, fearing Agdistis, cut off the male organ. There grew up from it an almond-tree with its fruit ripe, and a daughter of the river Sangarius, they say, took of the fruit and laid it in her bosom, when it at once disappeared, but she was with child [virgin conception!]. A boy was born, and exposed, but was tended by a he-goat. As he grew up his beauty was more than human, and Agdistis fell in love with him. When he had grown up, Attis was sent by his relatives to Pessinus, that he might wed the king's daughter. The marriage-song was being sung, when Agdistis appeared, and Attis went mad and cut off his genitals, as also did he who was giving him his daughter in marriage. But Agdistis repented of what he had done to Attis, and persuaded Zeus to grant that the body of Attis should neither rot at all nor decay.
These are the most popular forms of the legend of Attis. ..."
In both these earlier legends, again, Attis lives and dies as an earthly "flesh & blood"!

There is not much here about Attis being a god (as much later Julian the Apostate will describe him): http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/f ... other.html
Actually, according to the earliest account, the one of Hermesianac, Attis was born with no sexual organ (does that happen? Maybe, but that would be very very rare) and consequently seems predestined to be a priest of Cybele.
Then his story got modified & embellished, and Attis was resurrected according to Julian.
All of that seems to me like a human who got deified along the centuries. That would be the same pattern to what happened to Jesus, except that took decades instead of centuries.

Cordially, Bernard

[Bernard Muller]

to Giuseppe,

but John the Baptist is not in the incipit of the Marcion's gospel.

Oh, sorry, I did not read "incipit" in your previous post

Cordially Bernard

[MrMacSon]

but rather in a very human-like physical body.

Cordially, Bernard

Literature does that.

Cordially, Mr Mac

[Kapyong]

Gday all,

Of course there is logic: would forgers and ne'er-do-wells get together and fabricate ...

If it's not true, then it must be a forgery by a conspiracy of bad people.
But it can NOT possibly be such a fabricated forgery - therefore it must be all true - hallelujah ! Praise Jesus !

What about Adam and Eve ? Noah's flood ? The tower of Babel ? Shakespeare ? Beowulf ? Jason and the Argonauts ?
Which are they ?
Forgeries fabricated by a conspiracy of ne'er-do-wells ?
Or truth ?

What nonsense this argument is !

Kapyong

[Kapyong]

Gday,

Paul & Hebrews repeatedly mention the past existence of an earthly human Jesus. The same goes for (very likely) 1st century epistles: 1 Clement & Barnabas.
Cordially, Bernard

Paul never says Jesus was 'earthly' - that's just your interpretation of ambiguous references which could be heavenly also.

Kapyong