Secret Alias wrote:Since you only trust "experts" Lieu provides another example of the incongruity:
It seems it’s not easy for you to get my point here. I’m fully open to the idea that the attestions and claims of Tertullian, Epiphanius and Co. about Marcion and GMarcion could be more or less incorrect. But I do not think that you can say that some of them are correct (those you like) and some of them not (those you dislike). My impression is a bit that this is what you do. You accept some claims about Marcion and Gmarcion and reject some others. And then you speculate about a Marcion how you wish him to be.
(For the purpose of the thread I accept the usual reconstruction of GMarcion.)
Fourth round: Marcion and the appearance of Moses and Elijah in Glory
Or as Ephrem said
But concerning Moses and Elijah who were found on the mountain in company with Jesus, what do the Marcionites say that they were doing in his presence?
Note the order:
Mark: Elijah first (“with” Moses)
Marcion: Moses first ("Moses and Elijah")
Ben C. Smith wrote:Luke 9.28-36, the transfiguration.
28 About eight days after these sayings, he took with him Peter, John, and James, and went up onto the mountain to pray. 29 As he was praying, the appearance of his face was altered, and his clothing became white and dazzling. 30 Behold, two men were talking with him,who wereMoses and Elijah, 31 whoappeared in glory,and spoke of his departure, which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.
For the purpose of the thread I accept the usual reconstruction of GMarcion
But that is how misunderstandings and misrepresentations are kept alive. Convenience
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
14 When the hour had come,he sat down with the twelveapostles. 15 He said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer, 16 for I tell you, I will no longer by any means eat of it until it is fulfilled in God’s Kingdom.” 17 He received a cup, and when he had given thanks, he said, “Take this, and share it among yourselves, 18 for I tell you, I will not drink at all again from the fruit of the vine, until God’s Kingdom comes.” 19 He,after they had dined,took bread,and when he had given thanks, he broke, andgave it to them,saying, “This is my body which is given for you. Do this in memory of me.” 20 Likewise, he took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.
I guess the title of this thread contains a false friend? The "brave" here, is it supposed to mean "well-behaved" or "following the rules", like in German?
Ulan wrote:I guess the title of this thread contains a false friend? The "brave" here, is it supposed to mean "well-behaved" or "following the rules", like in German?
Ironically, it was exactly this mistake that leads to the title of the thread. But I recognized that and thought that the “brave” could stand for some other Marcionite stories as the following one:
Sixth round: Luke and the Righteousness that comes by Works of the Law and how Marcion presumably slipped away
Ben C. Smith wrote:Luke 10.21-42, revealed to babes, blessed are your eyes and ears, the greatest commandment, the good Samaritan, Mary and Martha.
25 Behold, a certain lawyerstood up andtested him,saying,“Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He saidto him,“What is written in the law? How do you read it?” 27 He answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” 28 He said to him, “You haveanswered [Marcion: spoken] correctly. Do this, and you will live.”
In the true Gospel, a certain doctor of the law comes to the Lord and asks, "What shall I do to inherit life?" In the heretical gospel life only is mentioned, without the attribute eternal; so that the lawyer seems to have consulted Christ simply about the life which the Creator in the law promises to prolong,(1) and the Lord to have therefore answered him according to the law, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength,"(2) since the question was concerning the conditions of mere life.
36 As they said these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, “Peace be to you.” 37 But they were terrified and filled with fear, and supposed that they had seen aspirit [Marcion: phantom]. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled? Why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 See my hands and my feet, that it is truly me.~Touch me and see~,for a spirit doesn’t have~flesh and~bones, as you see that I have.” 40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet.
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It's party time
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Epiphanius, Panarion 42.11.17: Scholion 78. 'Why are ye troubled? Behold my hands and my feet, for a spirit hath not bones as ye see me have.' (a) Elenchus 78. Who can fail to laugh at the driveller who has foolishly dragged himself and the souls of others down to hell? If he had not acknowledged these words his imposture would be plausible, and his dupes would be pardonable. (b) But now, since he acknowledged these texts and did not take them out, and his followers read them too, his sin and theirs remains and the fire is inescapable for him and them, since they have no excuse. For the Saviour has clearly taught that even after his resurrection he has bones and flesh, as he testified himself with the words, 'as ye see me have.'
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In this thread I didn't want to show contradictions between Marcion’s reconstructed gospel and his theology, but contradictions between Marcion’s reconstructed gospel and what is thought as his theology (based on the claims of Tertullian, Epiphanius and others).
But why shouldn’t this be the theology of later Marcionites who were influenced by gnosticism?
There is nothing in his gospel what contradicts Justin’s description of Marcion as Stephan summarized it
Secret Alias wrote:This is the real extent of what we can know was the accusation against Marcion in the earliest period which to my understanding amounts to him:
1. being of Pontus and a contemporary of Justin
2. being conceived by demons (δαιμόνων συλλήψεως)
3. having denied that God was the maker (ποιητὴν) of all things in heaven and earth and that the Christ predicted (προκηρυχθέντα) by the prophets is His Son preaching and persuading (πειθομένους) his disciples to believe in some other god greater (μείζονα) than the Demiurge god (δημιουργοῦ θεόν) and another son (ἕτερον υἱόν)
4. establishing a widespread (indeed global = κατὰ πᾶν γένος ἀνθρώπων) community of Χριστιανοὶ (or likely Chrestoi) as a philosophical sect (or heresy)