So "men" does not appear in the manuscripts, and Tertullian must have introduced it. "Fruits" do appear in the manuscripts... and Tertullian must have introduced it.Bernard Muller wrote:That shows for me "men" comes from Tertullian and no others. And if Tertullian had "men" in "the picture presented in the parable", he probably also originated "fruit" in it, inadvertently introducing something stupid (all fruit trees produce fruit when summer is approaching).
Good find, Bernard. Tertullian does indeed elaborate on Luke 21.30, and he does so by verbosely and strongly emphasizing a stage of growth long before fruit. This makes it less likely that he is responsible for introducing fruits.Something I just found, thanks to Peter's catena, that Tertulian wrote in 'The Resurrection of the Flesh' Ch. 22:
" For after He had declared that "Jerusalem was to be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles should be fulfilled [only in gLuke],"--meaning, of course, those which were to be chosen of God, and gathered in with the remnant of Israel--He then goes on to proclaim, against this world and dispensation (even as Joel had done, and Daniel, and all the prophets with one consent), that "there should be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars, distress of nations with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring, men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth." "For," says He, "the powers of heaven shall be shaken; and then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds, with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draweth nigh." He spake of its "drawing nigh," not of its being present already; and of "those things beginning to come to pass," not of their having happened: because when they have come to pass, then our redemption shall be at hand, which is said to be approaching up to that time, raising and exciting our minds to what is then the proximate harvest of our hope. He immediately annexes a parable of this in "the trees which are tenderly sprouting into a flower-stalk, and then developing the flower, which is the precursor of the fruit." "So likewise ye," (He adds), "when ye shall see all these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of heaven is nigh at hand." ..."
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... ian16.html
Here, there are no doubts Tertullian "innovated" on Lk 21:30a.
I think you are dating traditions inside the gospels, not the gospels themselves. But that discussion is too complex and too far afield for this discussion. If this particular point ends up being your main reason for holding your current position, so be it. I will leave it for now.I think there is a problem. Yes ""you" can easily both know your fruit trees and know your signs of the oncoming apocalypse". But could it be the same "you"?
The "you" in 21:29 are the four disciples on the mount of Olives with Jesus (or "men" if you still think Tertullian quoted gMarcion here). Does not matter. Both would easily know about the fructification of fruit trees (of the trees getting new leaves).
But then, the "you" of "so also you" or "so, likewise, you", if it still means the four disciples, then that would imply this foursome would be believed still alive when the gospels were written, which would be quite a stretch for gLuke, gMatthew (written around 85-90, some say later), and even more so for gMarcion. That would mean that Jesus was a false prophet, because he predicted the apocalypse will happen before the disciples died.
How to explain that?
Make no mistake; I still think that is a valid argument, and that Tertullian was quoting Marcion at Luke 16.17. My point here is and always was that Tertullian makes no more effort to signal his quotation of Marcion at 16.17 than he does at 21.30-31. They both look like quotes from Marcion.Tertullian had no reason to make a change here, but Marcion certainly had.
And you did say:
"Marcion apparently has "one tittle of my (Jesus') words", yet a "tittle" (Greek κεραία) is a written mark, a stroke or a serif on certain letters. Such a term makes far more sense when applied to the law, which had been written for centuries, than it does applied to Jesus' own (as yet unwritten) words while he is still speaking them. ..."
And now that we know, thanks to your digging up On the Resurrection of the Flesh 22, that Tertullian himself thought of the sign of the fig tree as something that comes before the fruit, he is most likely quoting Marcion and not paraphrasing the fruit into the text on his own, which makes "men" more likely to be part of the quote, as well.
Ben.