the Geography of early Christianity

[andrewcriddle]

On the other hand it does not seem to have been explicitly Gnostic

one might perhaps be inclined to think of early Egyptian Christianity as proto-gnostic

(1) What time period in Egypt are we talking about? Mid first century? Late first century? Early second century? Mid second century?

(2) Where is all of this coming from? What information is this based on?

My point is that genuine Gnostics e.g. Sethians made heavy use of texts such as the Apocryphon of John (found in several versions in later Coptic texts) texts that were never going to become part of the later orthodox canon.

In general (with important exceptions such as the Thomas fragments) we don't find this sort of material in texts from early Egyptian Christianity. We do find quite a lot of material from texts that would later be regarded as orthodox.

Andrew Criddle

[Peter Kirby]

On the other hand it does not seem to have been explicitly Gnostic

one might perhaps be inclined to think of early Egyptian Christianity as proto-gnostic

(1) What time period in Egypt are we talking about? Mid first century? Late first century? Early second century? Mid second century?

(2) Where is all of this coming from? What information is this based on?

My point is that genuine Gnostics e.g. Sethians made heavy use of texts such as the Apocryphon of John (found in several versions in later Coptic texts) texts that were never going to become part of the later orthodox canon.

In general (with important exceptions such as the Thomas fragments) we don't find this sort of material in texts from early Egyptian Christianity. We do find quite a lot of material from texts that would later be regarded as orthodox.

We're still talking about the (primarily, third century) manuscripts found in Egypt? Is that all?

BTW, the argument with P. R. F. Brown led to the collection of some of these references:

http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... ?f=3&t=771

188 P.Oxy. 3.405 II/III Oxyrhynchus Irenaeus, Adversus Haereses 3.9, 2-3
213 P.Oxy. 41.2949 II/III Oxyrhynchus Gospel of Peter
214 P.Oxy. 4.654 III Oxyrhynchus Gospel of Thomas, Prologue and logoi 1-7
215 P.Oxy. 50.3525 III Oxyrhynchus Gospel of Mary
217 P.Oxy. 4.655 beg. III Oxyrhynchus Gospel of Thomas, logoi 24, 36-39
224 P.Ryl. 3.463 beg. III Oxyrhynchus Gospel of Mary
225 P.Oxy. 1.1 early III Oxyrhynchus Gospel of Thomas, logoi 26-33, 77a
226 P.Schøyen 1.21 III unknown Acts of Paul and Thecla

In any case, the premise seems to be that the real McCoy 'Gnostics' would be leaving copies of the NHL texts all over.

Is that sound? It certainly seems to exclude Marcion as a 'Gnostic' (an argument that has been made, occasionally, of course). Perhaps Valentinus, Heracleon, and Basilides also, given their emphasis on the exegesis of texts that end up in the New Testament. If Marcionites and Valentinians are excluded... well is it any wonder that we might find little evidence for the remaining types of 'Gnostics'? Marcionitism and Valentinianism were hugely popular. Valentinianism especially has many teachers active in Egypt at this time (first half of the second century).

Like we've discussed before, comparing NT manuscript finds to 'Gnostic' manuscript finds is a completely invalid approach. Gnostics liked NT texts. Catholics liked NT texts. No real, major difference there.

What would be more valid would be to compare the non-canonical 'Gnostic' finds to the 'patristic' finds. That would be more of an apples-for-apples comparison.

In any case, it doesn't bring us back to the first half of the second century. We don't have the data for that, based on manuscript finds.

[MrMacSon]

I saw a documentary recently about an American archaeologist who's used satellite technology to scan Egypt for potential digs - she's identified over 2,500 sites. But the present politico-social situation in Egypt makes any attempts impossible

[Peter Kirby]

I saw a documentary recently about an American archaeologist who's used satellite technology to scan Egypt for potential digs - she's identified over 2,500 sites. But the present politico-social situation in Egypt makes any attempts impossible

Not necessarily. Maybe Josh McDowell and his gang can fund an armed expedition to Egypt, nineteenth century style?

[Peter Kirby]

PS -- Search, seizure, and book-burning may also (unfortunately) be a factor. A ms. that lasted 100-200 years might have been found and seized, not thrown out. So it would not have made it to the trash heaps.

(Manuscripts made in the second century or third century were not thrown out the next day, obviously... the really harrowing experiences for the 'gnostics' would have come in the fourth century.)

[MrMacSon]

PS -- Search, seizure, and book-burning may also (unfortunately) be a factor.

Yes

[MrMacSon]

.
I'm somewhat intrigued by the name Antioch

Antioch on the Orontes was an ancient Greek city[1] on the eastern side of the Orontes River. Its ruins lie near the modern city of Antakya, Turkey, and lends the modern city its name (/ˈæntiˌɒk/; Greek: Ἀντιόχεια ἡ ἐπὶ Ὀρόντου; or Ἀντιόχεια ἡ ἐπὶ Δάφνῃ, "Antioch on Daphne"; or Ἀντιόχεια ἡ Μεγάλη, "Antioch the Great"; Armenian: Անտիոք Antiok; Turkish: Antakya; Arabic: انطاكية, Anṭākiya; Persian: انطاکیه‎; Syriac: ܐܢܛܝܘܟܝܐ Anṭiokia; Hebrew: אנטיוכיה, Antiyokhya; Georgian: ანტიოქია Ant'iokia; Latin: Antiochia ad Orontem; also Syrian Antioch).

... Antioch's geographic, military and economic location, particularly the spice trade, the Silk Road, the Persian Royal Road, benefited its occupants, and eventually it rivaled Alexandria as the chief city of the Near East and as the main center of Hellenistic Judaism at the end of the Second Temple period.

Roman Period
The Roman emperors favoured the city from the first, seeing it as a more suitable capital for the eastern part of the empire than Alexandria could be, because of the isolated position of Egypt.

In Roman times, Antioch was the principal city of the Roman Province of Syria, and the fourth largest city of the Roman Empire, after Rome, Ephesus and Alexandria. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarch_ ... ch#History

Antioch

Roman Period [continued]

To a certain extent they tried to make it an eastern Rome. Julius Caesar visited it in 47 BC, and confirmed its freedom. A great temple to Jupiter Capitolinus rose on Silpius, probably at the insistence of Octavian, whose cause the city had espoused. A forum of Roman type was laid out. Tiberius built two long colonnades on the south towards Silpius.

An earthquake that shook Antioch in AD 37 caused the emperor Caligula to send two senators to report on the condition of the city. Another quake followed in the next reign.

Titus set up the Cherubim, captured from the Jewish temple, over one of the gates.

In 115, during Trajan's travel there during his war against Parthia, the whole site was convulsed by an earthquake. The landscape altered, and the emperor himself was forced to take shelter in the circus for several days. He and his successor restored the city.

Antioch is mentioned several times in Acts 11 which contains the fairly well-known passage "And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch" (Acts 11:26)


There is also Antioch of Pisidia

• "- also known as Antiochia Caesareia or [Antiochia] Colonia Caesarea – a city in the Turkish Lakes Region, which is at the crossroads of the Mediterranean, Aegean and Central Anatolian regions, and formerly on the border of Pisidia and Phrygia, hence also known as Antiochia in Phrygia ..."

... mentioned in Acts 13:13-14

13 Now when Paul and his company loosed from Paphos, they came to Perga in Pamphylia: and John departing from them returned to Jerusalem. 14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.

Acts 13 also mentions Antioch in verse 1, and gives a lot of mixtures of names throughout that Chapter ...
.

[MrMacSon]

.
Antioch of Pisidia continued

[wiki]Antioch_of_Pisidia#History_of_Antioch[/wiki]

Roman Period

"Although Anatolia was dominated by the Roman Empire as the province of Asia, Pisidia was given to the Kingdom of Cappadocia, which was an ally of Rome. During the following years, the authority gap which could not be filled by these kingdoms remote from central government, led to the rise of powerful pirate kingdoms, especially in Cilicia and Pisidia. The Romans were disturbed by these kingdoms and fought against them. Cilicia, Pamphylia, Phrygia and Pisida were freed from pirates and Roman rule was restored in 102 BC.

"The geographical and strategical position of the region made it difficult to control the area and maintain constant peace. The Homonadesians, settled in the Taurus Mountains between Attaleia and Ikonion, caused problems for Rome. Marcus Antonius who had to control the roads connecting Pisidia to Pamphylia, charged his allied king Amyntas, King of Pisidia, to fight against Homonadesians, but Amyntas was killed during the struggle.

"Then Rome started to colonize using military legions as a solution to the failure of the locally appointed governors. The Province of Galatia was established in 25 BC and Antioch became a part of it. To support the struggle against the Homonadesians logistically, the construction of a road called the Via Sebaste [the 'Emperoro's Road], the centre of which was Antioch, was started by the governor of the Province of Galatia, Cornutus Arrutius Aquila. The Via Sebaste was separated into two and directed to the southwest and southeast to surround the Homonadesians. Secondary connecting roads were built between these two roads. ... by means of the Via Sebaste, P.Sulpicius Quirinius1 brought an end to the Homonadesians problem in 3 BC, relocating survivors in different surrounding locations.

'During the reign of Augustus, eight colonies were established in Pisidia, but only Antioch [of Pisidia] was honoured with the title of Caesarea and given the right of the Ius Italicum [Italian law], maybe because of its strategic position. The city became an important Roman colony which rose to the position of a capital city with the name of 'Colonia Caesarea'.

"Hellenisation became Latinisation during the Roman period and it was applied in Antioch [of Pisidia] best. The city was divided into seven quarters called "vici" all of which were founded on seven hills like in Rome. The formal language was Latin until the end of the 3rd century. The fertility of the land and the peace brought by Augustus (Pax Romana: Roman Peace) made it easier for the veterans as colonists in the area to have good relations and integration with the natives.

"One of the three surviving copies of the Res Gestae Divi Augusti, the famous inscription recording the noble deeds of the Emperor Augustus was found in front of the Augusteum in Antioch. The original was carved on bronze tablets and exhibited in front of the Mausoleum of Augustus in Rome, but unfortunately has not survived. The Antioch copy on stone was written in Latin which is a sign of the importance of the city as a military and cultural base of Rome in Asia. (One of the copies, in Greek and Latin, is in Ankara, the other, in Greek, in Apollonia -Uluborlu).

Early Christian-Byzantine period

"Paul the Apostle and Barnabas, as recounted in the Acts of the Apostles,[1] visited Antioch of Pisidia in the course of Paul's first missionary journey, and Paul's sermon in the Jewish synagogue caused a great stir among the citizens, but the ensuing conflict with the Jews led to his expulsion, together with Barnabas, from the city. The two returned later, and appointed elders for the community there.[2] Antioch is not mentioned by name in relation to Paul's other missionary journeys, but he did visit the region in both his second[3] and his third[4] journeys. Paul's "persecutions and sufferings" at Antioch are spoken of in 2 Timothy 3:11 -

• 2 Timothy 3:11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.

"In the 6th century the city of Antioch, which had been ranked as a Roman colonia an outpost established in conquered territory to secure it, lost its strategic importance and, as it was off the main trade route, it started to lose importance more generally."

1 Quirinius

After the banishment of the ethnarch Herod Archelaus in 6 AD, Iudaea (the conglomeration of Samaria, Judea and Idumea) came under direct Roman administration with Coponius as prefect; at the same time Quirinius was appointed Legate of Syria, with instructions to assess Iudea Province for taxation purposes.[8] One of his first duties was to carry out a census as part of this.[9]

The Jews already hated their pagan conquerors, and censuses were forbidden under Jewish law. The assessment was greatly resented by the Jews, and open revolt was prevented only by the efforts of the high priest Joazar.[10] As it was, the census did trigger the revolt of Judas of Galilee and the formation of the party of the Zealots, according to Josephus.[11]

The Gospel of Luke links the birth of Jesus to the Census of Quirinius of 6 AD. Most modern historians consider Luke's account mistaken, since he also seems to locate the birth during the reign of Herod the Great, who died a decade earlier.[12]

[MrMacSon]

.
Patriarch of Antioch

History

First Christians

"Despite being overshadowed in ecclesiastical authority by the Patriarch of Constantinople in the later years of the Eastern Roman Empire, the Antiochene Patriarch remained the most independent, powerful, and trusted of the Eastern Patriarchs. The Antiochene church was a centre of Christian learning, second only to Alexandria. In contrast to the Hellenistic-influenced Christology of Alexandria, Rome, and Constantinople, Antiochene theology was greatly influenced by Rabbinic Judaism and other modes of Semitic thought—emphasizing the single, transcendent divine substance (οὐσία), which in turn led to adoptionism in certain extremes, and to the clear distinction of two natures of Christ (δύο φύσεις: dyophysitism): one participating in humanity, the other in divinity.

"Lastly, compared to the Patriarchates in Constantinople, Rome, and Alexandria which, for various reasons, became mired in the theology of imperial state religion, many of the [Antiochene] Patriarchs managed to straddle the divide between the controversies of Christology and imperial unity through its piety and straightforward grasp of early Christian thought which was rooted in its primitive Church beginnings."
______________________________________________________________________________________________

List of Patriarchs of Antioch; 37–546

[MrMacSon]

Now,

Are we sure that reference to Antioch is generally reference to 'Antioch on the Orontes river'; or Antioch of Pisidia ??

There is reference to a few people coming from Antioch (in Cappodica(?)) or being Patriarch of Antioch in later times ie. the 4th C

On 26 November 380, two days after he had arrived in Constantinople, Theodosius expelled the non-Nicene bishop, Demophilus of Constantinople, and appointed Meletius patriarch of Antioch, and Gregory of Nazianzus, one of the Cappadocian Fathers from Antioch (today in Turkey), patriarch of Constantinople

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodosius ... ian_creeds

Saint Meletius of Antioch (Μελέτιος) (died 381) was a Christian bishop, or "Patriarch of Antioch", from 360 until his death.

Gregory_of_Nazianzus was born of Greek parentage[4] in the family estate of Karbala outside the village of Arianzus, near Nazianzus, in southwest Cappadocia. His parents, Gregory and Nonna, were wealthy land-owners. In AD 325 Nonna converted her husband (an Hypsistarian) to Christianity; he was subsequently ordained as bishop of Nazianzus in 328 or 329.[3]:vii

Eustathius of Antioch, sometimes surnamed the Great, was a bishop and patriarch of Antioch in the 4th century.

He was a native of Side in Pamphylia [south of Pisidia]. About 320 he was bishop of Beroea, and he became patriarch of Antioch shortly before the Council of Nicaea in 325.