Textual Scholars as Technicians (Bart Ehrman)

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Leucius Charinus
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Textual Scholars as Technicians (Bart Ehrman)

Post by Leucius Charinus »

From an associate on fb ... "Bart Ehrman wrote a blog post that looks down on textual critics, they being too concerned with minutiae instead of getting the bigger picture. Here is the full text from his member$-only blog." Please discuss.
  • Textual Scholars as Technicians

    I’ve been trying in the posts of this thread to explain why textual critics are often thought not to be expert in the wide range of topics that other New Testament scholars are well versed in. They are instead frequently seen as technicians who do the really hard, dirty work that no one else is either that interested in doing or knowledgeable about, even though some of it (not all) is thought to be necessary and important as a kind of preliminary exercise. But it’s to be done by others.

    I, on the other hand, was long intrigued with textual criticism, from my early college days. When I went to Princeton Seminary (already knowing Greek) and took a course with Metzger on palaeography (the study of ancient handwriting in the manuscripts and related topics) I was thrilled. In that course we learned how to “collate” manuscripts. I thought I’d died and gone to heaven.

    Collating manuscripts, for most people, is no fun at all. It involves taking a manuscript – that is, a hand written copy – and comparing it word by word with a printed text, to see where it differs. You make a note of every single difference. And then you do it with another text. And another. And pretty soon you have lots of data, indicating what all the manuscripts have as their texts, at every point.

    At the time, around 1980 or so – there were, practically speaking, only two ways to have access to Greek manuscripts of the New Testament: some (very, very few) were photographed and printed on books, and others (more) were available on microfilm. And so I learned how to do collations, using both media.

    When I got the hang of reading manuscripts both in the more ancient uncial script (which looks kind of like our capital letters, uniformly made, and relatively easy to distinguish) and in the later minuscule script (which looks more like cursive writing, where letters are small case, written together, with numerous ligatures – that is, the letters taking different forms when combined with certain other letters; this is hard to get a handle on at first), and started collating manuscripts, I thought that this was the real deal, hard hitting scholarship, not the soft-core stuff that my colleagues in New Testament studies were doing. They were interpreting texts. Not that hard, I thought. I was *collating manuscripts*!!!

    I wanted to devote my life to collating manuscripts. This is an essential and completely fundamental task. It is how we know what this, that, or the other manuscript has as its text of each and every verse that it contains. If we don’t know what the texts of the manuscripts read, then we don’t know what variant readings there are for a passage and so we don’t know what the options are: which reading is the original text and which ones represent scribal changes of the text.

    On the other hand, frankly, it does get boring after a while. Metzger had the very good sense not only to teach me how to collate but also to suggest that there might be other even more important things to do for a dissertation. And so he directed me to my project on Didymus.

    I’ve known textual scholars who really have wanted to do nothing but detailed studies of manuscripts – just as I myself wanted to do. And if left to my own devices, I probably would have done that, for my entire life. I’m very glad that didn’t happen. Early on in my life as a scholar I came to realize that textual specialists had a reputation among other New Testament scholars as working in technical minutiae that had almost no bearing on the broader interests of the discipline – for example, the interpretation of the NT writings, the theological understandings of the different early Christian authors, the history of the earliest Christian movement, and so on. And I quickly began to see why they had that opinion. If what we did mainly was such things as collate manuscripts – well, that didn’t exactly train us to know how to do engage in the interpretation of Paul’s letter to the Romans, or to understand Gnosticism, or to reconstruct the life of the historical Jesus, etc.

    There was a moment when I came to understand why other scholars simply didn’t have time for the technical aspects of NT textual criticism. I was at a professional conference – the annual Society of Biblical Literature meeting – at some point in my graduate program, I suppose in the very early 1980s. The SBL, as it is called, has thousands of scholars of the Bible come, and papers are read on every biblical topic you can imagine, along with many more that you probably can’t imagine, many papers being presented at different sessions at the same time. I would always go to the sessions devoted to NT textual criticism.

    At this particular meeting an unusually erudite (and well-known) European scholar was reading a paper in which he was discussing Matthew 10:10, where Jesus sends out his disciples to preach about the coming kingdom, heal the sick, and cast out demons, telling them not to take with them any money, bag, extra tunics, sandals, or even a staff. The scholar was discussing this word “staff” as it was found in one of the ancient versions (I don’t remember what it was – Armenian or Ethiopic or something). He had collated all the surviving manuscripts at this point, and there were two different words in this version that were used for “staff” in the surviving witnesses. He had a handout that showed which manuscripts had which words. He discussed which manuscripts were older, which were generally more reliable, which of the words occurred elsewhere in these manuscripts, and so on. It was a full 25-minute paper on the alternative possibilities for the word “staff” in this ancient version.

    When he finished and took questions, I raised my hand. I asked him what the difference of *meaning* was between the two words. He said there was *no* difference of meaning. So I asked him why it mattered which word was used, if they meant the same thing. He was genuinely irritated by the question and didn’t see the point. For him it *obviously* mattered that you had to have the right word. Otherwise you’d have the wrong word. This wasn’t even the word in the original Greek! It was the word in some obscure version – and either word could have adequately translated the Greek word for staff.

    It was at that point that I realized both why textual scholars were not seen as doing significant work by other NT scholars and, more important, that I did not want to be like that.

It sounds like there is a moral to this story but its Armenian or Ethiopic or something ....

I guess it shows how NT scholars maintain great focus on the Greek.


IDK.
A "cobbler of fables" [Augustine]; "Leucius is the disciple of the devil" [Decretum Gelasianum]; and his books "should be utterly swept away and burned" [Pope Leo I]; they are the "source and mother of all heresy" [Photius]
Ulan
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Re: Textual Scholars as Technicians (Bart Ehrman)

Post by Ulan »

That's typically Ehrman. It's funny how little substance he brings in so many words. It's the same with his books. You can usually shorten those to 20% and not lose anything. I don't want to be too harsh on him, as he managed to kindle my interest in this field, so there's that.

So what do we have here? We get a single anecdote of an obviously inane application of collating text, and that's supposed to show us that the whole field is of no value? Sounds convincing...

But yes, you can make better use of your time, like trying to "reconstruct the life of the historical Jesus". Which is the real joke in that post.
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Re: Textual Scholars as Technicians (Bart Ehrman)

Post by toejam »

Ulan wrote:... and that's supposed to show us that the whole field is of no value? Sounds convincing...
LOL. You're seeing things if you think this is what the post is "supposed to show us". The past week he's been posting about his career and how it's changed over the years. Whoopdedo. He probably typed this in 20mins while eating his breakfast. It's not supposed to be a scholarly argument of any kind. Like most bloggers, he generally mixes it up between personal and scholarly posts. No big deal. You guys are reading waaaay too much into this.
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Re: Textual Scholars as Technicians (Bart Ehrman)

Post by maryhelena »

I found a follow up post rather interesting - only available to subscribers though...

Bart Ehrman
External Evidence in Textual Criticism

The number of manuscripts that support one reading or another. You might think at the outset that this would be the most important factor – if lots of manuscripts have one of the readings and only a few have the other, then the majority should win, right? Well, not actually. Here’s why.THE REST OF THIS POST IS FOR MEMBERS ONLY. If you don’t belong yet, GET WITH THE PROGRAM!!!

Suppose the original copy of a book (say, Mark) was copied by two scribes, call them Scribe A and Scribe B. Both of them made some mistakes, but B more than A. And suppose the copy made by A is itself then copied by two other copyists, but copy B is copied by twenty. And then each of the two copies of A is copied three times, and each of the copies of B is copied ten times. What then? There are 9 copies with the A kind of text, but 221 copies of the B kind of text. And suppose then that A, B, and the first copies of each were all destroyed, so that all you have are 206 copies, 6 of them reading one way in one of the verses and 200 reading another way. Does the fact that far many more copies have the text of B make it better than the text of A? Quite the contrary, B was a worse copy than A. In this hypothetical case, the 6 manuscripts have a better text than the 200.

This is a purely hypothetical case, of course, but it shows clearly that because of the exigencies of copying, you can’t base a textual decision on the numbers of manuscripts that attest one form of the text over another.

The age of manuscripts that support one reading or another. This is almost always conceded to be a better criterion. If one form of the text is attested in a bunch of early manuscripts, nearer in time to the original, and the other is attested only in later manuscripts, then the later reading – even if it’s in the majority of surviving manuscripts – is more likely to be a later alteration of the text.
This rule cannot be applied woodenly, however. Suppose you have a hypothetical manuscript that we’ll call X and another that we call Y. Manuscript X is from the 5th century and manuscript Y is from the 7th century. You would think that Manuscript X is therefore innately better, since it’s 200 years earlier. But what if Manuscript X was itself a copy of a manuscript made in the 4th century, but Manuscript Y was a copy of a manuscript made in the 3rd century? In that case, the text of the 7th century manuscript is actually older than the text of the 5th century manuscript. Isn’t this fun?

The Geographic Distribution of Manuscripts. Suppose you have one form of the text that is found in manuscripts (and, say, versions and church fathers) that come from all over the place: Rome, Alexandria, Gaul, Spain, North Africa, and one that comes from only one place, say, Caesarea. Then it seems likely that the widely distributed reading is more likely original: the other could well be a local variant.


These are simply some of the external criteria that scholars use to decide which form of the text, if there are two or more forms available, is most likely the original one (well, two of the criteria, since the first is not of much use). There are other kinds of external evidence that are a bit more tricky, but they don’t matter much for my point here. If you have two forms of the text, and one of them, say, is found in almost all of the early manuscripts from a wide range of places, then that is more likely the original form over against the other, if it is found only in later manuscripts or only in manuscripts of a certain region.

But there is much more to a textual decision than looking at manuscripts. That’s what I realized full force early on when I decided that being a textual critic – at least a competent one – requires the scholar also to be an exegete. More on that in subsequent posts.

So, while the words are important - so too the necessity for interpretation...the forest is as important as any of the trees! The story, the context, has to be taken into account.
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats
ficino
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Re: Textual Scholars as Technicians (Bart Ehrman)

Post by ficino »

LC, I'm a palaeographer too! I will never forget the thrill of the first time I worked on a Greek manuscript: the famous "Venetus T" of Plato, while outside a gondolier (or maybe a waiter at a cafe?) was yelling, "Gianni, veni qua!" The majority of what I've published has to do with palaeography and textual criticism.

One of the things I liked was discovering things that no one had noticed before. Working on a deeply mined author like Plato is exhilarating, too, but one must realize that most of the time we probably recycle insights new to us but not to the history of scholarship - except as we apply new literary-theoretical approaches to the text.

I like your story about "staff."
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Re: Textual Scholars as Technicians (Bart Ehrman)

Post by bcedaifu »

ficino wrote: I like your story about "staff."
In my opinion, Bart Ehrman's anecdote claiming insignificance of the word "staff", while concurrently boasting of one's (i.e. his) ability to
"engage in the interpretation of Paul’s letter to the Romans, or to understand Gnosticism, or to reconstruct the life of the historical Jesus, etc",
demonstrates, if one had not already so concluded, that Ehrman lacks interest in exploring the evidence underlying the origins of Christianity. Rather, he hopes to shift attention away from the evidence, and towards his own point of view.
Professor, Dr. Bart Ehrman wrote:It was a full 25-minute paper on the alternative possibilities for the word “staff” in this ancient version.
When he finished and took questions, I raised my hand. I asked him what the difference of *meaning* was between the two words. He said there was *no* difference of meaning. So I asked him why it mattered which word was used, if they meant the same thing.
On this forum, we recently had a thread questioning the Greek word, for wood. "Wood", in Greek, bears significant relevance to the Christian religion: carpenter, cross, hanging from a tree=wood, healing (wooden staff carried by Aescapulis), source of power-- Constantine, to name a few. So, a multilanguage comparison of "staff" would have been a very worthy discussion, and I am ashamed of Ehrman for dismissing that particular SBL presentation. "Staff" is one of a dozen words, in the Christian tradition, that potentially has significance in unlocking the mystery of its creation from Greek, Egyptian, Persian, and Hebrew mythology.

I disagree that the distinction of the two different words, in different manuscripts, lacks utility. Armenian, Coptic, and Syriac could all have quite dissimilar linguistic roots for the ideas behind the words used to convey the meaning, including roots which are not synonymous with the Greek original. The result could well have been, in ancient times, an elaboration of a legend, not by virtue of the original author's intent, but simply by an unintentional (or deliberate!) misrepresentation of the meaning found in the original text. Since we lack "original" texts, in general, we are obliged to trace the evolution by comparing the same verse in manuscripts of different language, hoping to identify the original meaning.
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: Textual Scholars as Technicians (Bart Ehrman)

Post by Leucius Charinus »

ficino wrote:I like your story about "staff."
Thanks man. I am glad you (and others) got the story, and that you enjoy your field of palaeography. One of my more recent reads was Eric G. Turner's "The Typology of the Early Codex". It's a fascinating field.

Be well


LC
A "cobbler of fables" [Augustine]; "Leucius is the disciple of the devil" [Decretum Gelasianum]; and his books "should be utterly swept away and burned" [Pope Leo I]; they are the "source and mother of all heresy" [Photius]
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Re: Textual Scholars as Technicians (Bart Ehrman)

Post by Leucius Charinus »

bcedaifu wrote:Armenian, Coptic, and Syriac could all have quite dissimilar linguistic roots for the ideas behind the words used to convey the meaning, including roots which are not synonymous with the Greek original. The result could well have been, in ancient times, an elaboration of a legend, not by virtue of the original author's intent, but simply by an unintentional (or deliberate!) misrepresentation of the meaning found in the original text. Since we lack "original" texts, in general, we are obliged to trace the evolution by comparing the same verse in manuscripts of different language, hoping to identify the original meaning.
Good catch with the Coptic in particular. Had Bart's professor been talking about any of the Coptic codices full of those pesky gnostic gospels the alteration of one word can cause quite a sensation. Such was the case when De Connick questioned the translation of the Coptic term in the Gospel of Judas which had been translated by the National Geographic "crew" as "demon". The word was eventually changed to the translation of "daimon". As mh puts it, there are the trees and there is the forest.

The vast importance of Greek and Latin and Hebrew has been temporarily overshadowed by the need to translate more than 60 new Coptic texts in the last 60 years.

I guess such specialisation must be expected. Onward the technicians !!

Be well,



LC
A "cobbler of fables" [Augustine]; "Leucius is the disciple of the devil" [Decretum Gelasianum]; and his books "should be utterly swept away and burned" [Pope Leo I]; they are the "source and mother of all heresy" [Photius]
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Re: Textual Scholars as Technicians (Bart Ehrman)

Post by Leucius Charinus »

ficino wrote:One of the things I liked was discovering things that no one had noticed before.
I know what you mean. I am a retired inventor from a different field - relational database technology - which although is alien to most researchers, academics and scholars in the field of BC&H is very useful to model patterns in the data. The Hexapla of Origen with its multi-column approach is the forerunner of the spreadsheet and the spread sheet the forerunner of the database. That's what I find fascinating in some of these discussions. Discovering things. Multiple viewpoints and pathways promote exploration of new frontiers (so long as the tempers don't fray).
A "cobbler of fables" [Augustine]; "Leucius is the disciple of the devil" [Decretum Gelasianum]; and his books "should be utterly swept away and burned" [Pope Leo I]; they are the "source and mother of all heresy" [Photius]
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Re: Textual Scholars as Technicians (Bart Ehrman)

Post by Leucius Charinus »

Ulan wrote:That's typically Ehrman. It's funny how little substance he brings in so many words. It's the same with his books.
Some of his books are better than others. I thought "Forged" was quite instructive for example.
But yes, you can make better use of your time, like trying to "reconstruct the life of the historical Jesus".
Someone has to do it. The historical Jesus obviously needs saving from obscurity in every generation.
A "cobbler of fables" [Augustine]; "Leucius is the disciple of the devil" [Decretum Gelasianum]; and his books "should be utterly swept away and burned" [Pope Leo I]; they are the "source and mother of all heresy" [Photius]
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