Hakeem was a mental patient who escaped from a sanatorium in the Caribbean to wreak terror at this forum and its previous incarnation.Hakeem's comments from 2017 were exactly right.
"The Simontic Problem". "Mark's" Negative Casting of Peter
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Re: "The Simontic Problem". "Mark's" Negative Casting of Peter
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Simon Gets Fired As Disciple And Replaced By Simon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7OG4fCbdxM
Joseph
European Sympathy for Palestinians and Criticism for Israel - Motivated by Morals or Self-Interests?
Verse | Definition of Disciple Success | Fails Definition | Commentary |
3
| - | - | After Simon's appointment as apprentice disciple, his name is transferred to "Peter". |
8
| Deny yourself, take up your own cross and follow Jesus. | - | "Simon", presumably the most important target for the author, gets the most name manipulation, not just in quantity but also quality. |
14
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- | - | Peter is asleep on The Job so his name is converted back to Simon. |
14
| - | Peter denies Jesus 3 times. Via curse and oath! By denying Jesus and not himself, Peter will not be following Jesus to the cross. | Note that the author is careful to show Peter failing all the main points of successful Disciple definition: 1. Denying yourself. 2. Taking up your own cross. 3. Following Jesus. |
15
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- | - | 1. The replacement Simon meets the definition of disciple success by taking Jesus' cross and following him. 2. The outsider replaces the insider. 3. The name, in typical Markan style, is presented in the reverse of what would be expected. "The father of" as opposed to "the son of". 4. "Cyrene" in Greek mythology is queenish and I think this is what the author was going for. All The Replacements for the major characters in GMark have a positive reference = Magdalene (High), Arimathea (Best disciple), Cyrene (Queen). |
Joseph
European Sympathy for Palestinians and Criticism for Israel - Motivated by Morals or Self-Interests?
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP9pKQ5N6Qg
JW:
We can now add the following to my inventory:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=561&start=60#p105766
Stage 1 of "The Simontic Problem" = An Inventory of "Mark's" Negative Casting of Peter:
Major Negative Casting:
Joseph
The Israeli/Arab Conflict - The Balfour Declaration - 1917
We can now add the following to my inventory:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=561&start=60#p105766
GMark Greek 1:16 Background = Calling of Simon/Peter to be Disciple | GMark English | GMark Greek 9:22 Background = Demon possession and Disciple failure | GMark English | GMark Greek 9:42 Background = Calling out bad Disciples | GMark English | Commentary Note that the approximately same phrases, cast into the sea, share the subject of Discipleship to Jesus in neat order: 1) Calling of the Greeneric disciple Simon/Peter. 2) Illustration of Disciple failure. 3) Consequences of Disciple failure |
ἀμφιβάλλοντας | casting | ἔβαλεν | casts | βέβληται | cast | |
ἐν | into | καὶ | and | εἰς | into | - |
τῇ | the | εἰς | into | τὴν | the | - |
θαλάσσῃ | sea | ὕδατα | waters | θάλασσαν | sea | - |
Stage 1 of "The Simontic Problem" = An Inventory of "Mark's" Negative Casting of Peter:
Major Negative Casting:
- 1) 4:15 The Parable of the Sower specifically refers to Peter as in the category of Disciple Failure.
2) 8:32 Peter is presented as the Opposition to the Passion.
3) 14:30 Jesus predicts that Peter will Deny him Three times.
4) 14:53-72 Peter Denies Jesus Three times.
- 1) 1:29-31 Sickness in Simon's house.
2) 3:16 Jesus gives Simon an extra name, "Peter".
3) 6:3 The name "Simon" is assigned to a brother of Jesus who is presented unfavorably.
4) 14:1-9 A Simon is presented as a Leper.
5) 14:37 Jesus demotes Peter by using his pre-Disciple name, "Simon" to address him.
6) 14:34-42 Peter Fails to Watch out for Jesus.
7) 14:72 Peter mourns the loss of his life for Denying Jesus.
8) 15:21 Peter Simon is figuratively replaced as Leader of Jesus' followers.
- 1) 1:16/9:22/9:42 Use of phrase "cast into sea" to connect Peter to Failed Disciple.
Joseph
The Israeli/Arab Conflict - The Balfour Declaration - 1917
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Luukeey! Ya Got Sum Splainin Ta Do
JW:
A common literary technique is to emphasize something by placing it at the end of some connected part of the writing. The clearest example of this in GMark is at the very end. No one in Jesus' supposed time was promoting his supposed resurrection. The rest of GMark is laced with such examples. An important one is The Permanent Failure of Peter. Compare to one "Luke's" editing:
Joseph
Skeptical Textual Criticism
A common literary technique is to emphasize something by placing it at the end of some connected part of the writing. The clearest example of this in GMark is at the very end. No one in Jesus' supposed time was promoting his supposed resurrection. The rest of GMark is laced with such examples. An important one is The Permanent Failure of Peter. Compare to one "Luke's" editing:
GMark | GLuke | Commentary |
14
|
22
|
Note that in the likely original, GMark, Jesus' supposed success is given first and then the story finishes by contrasting that with Peter's failure. GMatthew, the likely next Gospel, follows this religious order. "Luke" though flips the order so that the story ends with Jesus' supposed success and that is what is emphasized. As always, evidence that GMark was not merely first here, but first everywhere, as even though "Luke" did not want GMark's main point (Peter's permanent failure), there was nothing else to use as a source. |
Joseph
Skeptical Textual Criticism
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Re: "The Simontic Problem". "Mark's" Negative Casting of Peter
Most interesting quote, JW.Joe Wallack wrote:"Luke" did not want GMark's main point (Peter's permanent failure), there was nothing else to use as a source.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/artic ... literature
You may be on to something in regards to Luke and the Synoptic Basket of Knowledge. As far as Luke goes, he may have had nothing else to use as a Source. Using John, however, shows us that there was something else. The Chamber of the Hearth and the Chamber of the Flames have different Functions, one Holy where only Priestly and Royals may attend and they must STAND. If these Priestly Types need to sit or rest, they go into the Chamber of the Hearth to sit on terraced steps. This is not explicitly stated in the Synoptics or John. The behavior is discerned from the Texts.
Someone had access to other information but it probably wasn't Luke.
Thanx,
CW
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Sleep, Paulpies, Sleep
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkUbeEjYnsoKunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:52 amGiuseppe wrote: ↑Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:22 am There is a very strange anomaly in Mark 15:41:And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 42 Rise up, let us go; lo, he that betrayeth me is at hand.imho, some other translations are rightPaul the Uncertain wrote: ↑Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:47 am Even with modern conventions for explicit intraspeech stage directions, you can find awkward-for-silent-readers transitions like that, where the author trusts the director and performer to read the speech effectively. It can even be part of the fun to see what the company comes up with.
English Standard Version
And he came the third time and said to them, “Are you still sleeping and taking your rest? It is enough; the hour has come.
JW:
14:41
Word | Greek/Transliteration | Translation | Morphology | Commentary |
2518 [e] | Καθεύδετε Katheudete | Are you sleeping | V-PIA-2P | Literally it's just "You are sleeping". The question form "are" at the start is an interpretation. |
3588 [e] | τὸ to | - | Art-ANS | The definite article. In context Jesus is addressing Peter, John and James who are rePeatedly falling asleep at the formulaic disciple failure time. Adding the definite article here to ID the primary failures in the story would be well within this author's style. |
3063 [e] | λοιπὸν loipon | still | Adj-ANS | λοιπὸν The word has a primary meaning of continuation. It's an adjective so it has no tense by itself. At this point we have a literary meaning of "You continue to sleep." First grammatical problem = The tense of the connecting words are all present but the adjective has a future connotation. Possible assumptions for translation = 1. "Mark" has bad grammar. Translate with or without future component. 2. "Mark's" grammar is deliberate here and stylish. The present tense fits the surrounding context, continuing to sleep on the job, but the adjective with the future meaning continues "Mark's" primary theme that these 3 disciples will always be "asleep" on the job (permanent condemnation). |
2532 [e] | καὶ kai | and | Conj | - |
373 [e] | ἀναπαύεσθε· anapaues | the taking your rest. | V-PIM-2P | - |
568 [e] | ἀπέχει· apechei | It is enough; | V-PIA-3S | ἀπέχει·
The word has a primary meaning of distance. The following context gives a meaning of "change". Second grammatical problem = Now we have a contradiction in that the word indicating a continuation is now part of a phrase referred to as a change. |
2064 [e] | ἦλθεν ēlthen | has come | V-AIA-3S | - |
3588 [e] | ἡ hē | the | Art-NFS | - |
5610 [e] | ὥρα, hōra | hour; | N-NFS | - |
I'll let KK interpret what my translation would be.
Joseph
SOPHISTRY, n. The controversial method of an opponent, distinguished from one's own by superior insincerity and fooling. This method is that of the later Sophists, a Grecian sect of philosophers who began by teaching wisdom, prudence, science, art and, in brief, whatever men ought to know, but lost themselves in a maze of quibbles and a fog of words.
Has There Ever Been Colonialization, Genocide and an Endless Series of Crimes Against the Universe in Modern Israel?
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Wrestling With Greco Tragedy. Reversal From Behind. Is GMark Greek Tragedy?
JW:
The legendary Ben Smith (I think the best contributor that ever graced this unholy Forum) left us with the opinion that he thought GMark
intended to communicate that there was a post resurrection restoration (not just reunion) of the Dipsicles. He based this opinion on three
main points:
As this Thread demonstrates GMark is overwhelmingly critical and discrediting of the Disciples in quality and quantity. I of course accept that GMark might still have some evidence that the intent was to show, imply or at least hint that the Disciples were restored but I never saw this in any of Ben's examples. Perhaps someone, anyone, Buehler, can post here what they think is the best verse evidence in GMark that the Disciples would be restored.
While I'm waiting I'll show Markan verses that seem to show all by themselves that the Disciples would not be restored:
Bonus material for Solo = In the next verse Jesus is transfigured into The Light. Peter is the negative to Jesus' positive throughout the Gospel. If Peter is identified as Satan and forced to get behind Jesus, the intent may have been to put Peter in Jesus' shadow, thus showing Peter as transfigured into The Darkness (while Jesus is transfigured into The Light). Coincidence?
Joseph
"But we can't negotiate with terrorists who just want us out." - Ukraine/Israel
https://twitter.com/i/status/1504804932079263885
The legendary Ben Smith (I think the best contributor that ever graced this unholy Forum) left us with the opinion that he thought GMark
intended to communicate that there was a post resurrection restoration (not just reunion) of the Dipsicles. He based this opinion on three
main points:
- 1) 14:28 and claiming that "Mark's" Jesus' predictions always came true (Ben accepted though that it might be a forgery).
2) Specific verses indicating Jesus' prediction of future success of the Disciples.
3) Not getting to the point of dealing with all the evidence going The other Way.
As this Thread demonstrates GMark is overwhelmingly critical and discrediting of the Disciples in quality and quantity. I of course accept that GMark might still have some evidence that the intent was to show, imply or at least hint that the Disciples were restored but I never saw this in any of Ben's examples. Perhaps someone, anyone, Buehler, can post here what they think is the best verse evidence in GMark that the Disciples would be restored.
While I'm waiting I'll show Markan verses that seem to show all by themselves that the Disciples would not be restored:
Verse | Commentary |
8 31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders, and the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. 32 And he spake the saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him. 33 But he turning about, and seeing his disciples, rebuked Peter, and saith, Get thee behind me, Satan; for thou mindest not the things of God, but the things of men. | 1. A chiasm that is all about reversal. 2. The reversal regards Jesus' words and the reaction to them. Peter rebukes Jesus' words and Jesus rebukes Peter's rebuke. |
|
1. Now the reversal is how to save your life. 2. You save your life by losing it. |
|
1. Now the reversal itself is reversed. 2. You lose your life by saving it. 3. Forms the inner part of the chiasm with the previous. 4. Typical Markan style, here, a reversal of a reversal, where a literary technique is taken one step further. |
38 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of man also shall be ashamed of him, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. | The final reversal and forms the outie of this chiasm with the first verse about Jesus' words and the consequence of not following them. 2. If you are ashamed of Jesus' words Jesus will be ashamed of you at Judgement. 3. Peter is the only one who is explicitly ashamed of Jesus' words here. The rest of GMark is consistent with Peter being ashamed of what Jesus said here. Jesus uses this as a teaching example to everyone. And for once, Jesus is speaking "plainly" here. So what does that say about Peter's future? |
Bonus material for Solo = In the next verse Jesus is transfigured into The Light. Peter is the negative to Jesus' positive throughout the Gospel. If Peter is identified as Satan and forced to get behind Jesus, the intent may have been to put Peter in Jesus' shadow, thus showing Peter as transfigured into The Darkness (while Jesus is transfigured into The Light). Coincidence?
Joseph
"But we can't negotiate with terrorists who just want us out." - Ukraine/Israel
https://twitter.com/i/status/1504804932079263885
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Your Inside is Out. Your Outside Is In.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5I94bT23cQ
JW:
10
3
Note that "Matthew" copies "Mark's" kai (and/also) but adds the definite article (also the one) and "Luke" exorcises the conjunctive kai (a pattern seen many times).
Joseph
“On their holy feasts, especially the Eid al-Kabir, crunchy bread is eaten, and the crime is that this bread is not kneaded unless it is kneaded with the blood of a non-Jew from the goys.”
—Dr. Nasser Al-Yafawi , Director at the Ministry of Education in Gaza
Facebook, October 9, 2020
The New Porphyry
JW:
10
Verses28 Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.
29 Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or mother, or father, or children, or lands, for my sake, and for the gospel`s sake,
30 but he shall receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
31 But many [that are] first shall be last; and the last first.
3
"Simon" is the first and the last here not counting Judas but what about the "who also betrayed him"? I think the straightforward meaning is as translated, Judas was selected and betrayed Jesus. But is there a subtext that Simon/all appointees also betrayed Jesus?16 and Simon he surnamed Peter;
17 and James the [son] of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and them he surnamed Boanerges, which is, Sons of thunder:
18 and Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the [son] of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Cananaean,
19 and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
Note that "Matthew" copies "Mark's" kai (and/also) but adds the definite article (also the one) and "Luke" exorcises the conjunctive kai (a pattern seen many times).
Joseph
“On their holy feasts, especially the Eid al-Kabir, crunchy bread is eaten, and the crime is that this bread is not kneaded unless it is kneaded with the blood of a non-Jew from the goys.”
—Dr. Nasser Al-Yafawi , Director at the Ministry of Education in Gaza
Facebook, October 9, 2020
The New Porphyry
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Reaction to "Peter's" Name
Gospel | GMark | GMatthew | GLuke | GJohn |
First Mention | 1
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4
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4
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4
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Commentary | - | - | - | - |
Joseph
Rock, Papal, Caesars
Hasan Salama
Re: Reaction to "Peter's" Name
Gospel | Thomas | GJohn | GMark | GLuke | GMatthew |
First Mention | 13
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1
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1
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4
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4
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Commentary | - | - | - | - | - |
John 1:42 papyri:
P66: ηγαγεν αυτον προς τον ι̅ν̅ εμβλεψας αυτω ο ι̅ς̅ ειπεν συ ει σιμων ο υ̅ς̅ ιωαννου συ κληθηση κηφας ο ερμηνευεταιπετρος
P75: ηγαγεν αυτον προς τον ι̅ν̅· εμβλεψας δε αυτω ο ι̅ς̅ ειπεν συ ει σιμων ο υιος ιωαννου συ κληθηση κηφας ο ερμηνευεται πετρος
P106: ηγα̣γεν α[υ]τ̣ον προς ι̅η̅[ν̅] [εμβλε]ψ̣α̣ς̣ αυτω ο ι̅η̅ς̅ ειπεν συ ε̣[ι] [σιμων] [ο] υ̣ι̣ο̣ς ιωαννου [σ]υ κληθη[ση] [κηφας] ο ερμηνευ[εται] πετ̣ρ̣ο̣ς̣
P119: [ηγαγεν] [α]υτον π̣[ρος] [τον] [ι̅ν̅] [εμβλεψας] [αυτω] [ο] [ι̅ς̅] [ειπεν] [αυτ]ω συ ει [σιμων] [ο] [υ̅ς̅] [ιωαννου] [συ] [κληθησ]η̣ κηφας [ο] [ερμηνευεται] [πετρος]
P120: [ερμη]ν̣ευεται π̣[ετρος]
P66: ηγαγεν αυτον προς τον ι̅ν̅ εμβλεψας αυτω ο ι̅ς̅ ειπεν συ ει σιμων ο υ̅ς̅ ιωαννου συ κληθηση κηφας ο ερμηνευεταιπετρος
P75: ηγαγεν αυτον προς τον ι̅ν̅· εμβλεψας δε αυτω ο ι̅ς̅ ειπεν συ ει σιμων ο υιος ιωαννου συ κληθηση κηφας ο ερμηνευεται πετρος
P106: ηγα̣γεν α[υ]τ̣ον προς ι̅η̅[ν̅] [εμβλε]ψ̣α̣ς̣ αυτω ο ι̅η̅ς̅ ειπεν συ ε̣[ι] [σιμων] [ο] υ̣ι̣ο̣ς ιωαννου [σ]υ κληθη[ση] [κηφας] ο ερμηνευ[εται] πετ̣ρ̣ο̣ς̣
P119: [ηγαγεν] [α]υτον π̣[ρος] [τον] [ι̅ν̅] [εμβλεψας] [αυτω] [ο] [ι̅ς̅] [ειπεν] [αυτ]ω συ ει [σιμων] [ο] [υ̅ς̅] [ιωαννου] [συ] [κληθησ]η̣ κηφας [ο] [ερμηνευεται] [πετρος]
P120: [ερμη]ν̣ευεται π̣[ετρος]