We know that a little further on Paul saw the gentiles as also figuratively of the seed of Abraham (Gal. 3:29) rather than literal sons of Abraham. So it's quite possible that Christ was also figuratively of the seed of Abraham, possibly in a similar way he was of the seed of David in the heavens.
Figuratively (or honorarily) but still these Gentiles were earthly human beings. Oh, seed of David in the heavens makes sense? What next?
This is another troublesome kata sarka reference (concerning the flesh) and could have the Doherty/Carrier meaning of descending to the realm of flesh in the Air Beneath the Moon without incarnating on earth.
"kata sarka" means "according to the flesh", not in some lower heavens. Doherty got roasted on that one and I do not think Carrier is following Doherty here.
And that makes a lot of sense!!! And we have no evidence a passage from 2 Samuel 7 was interpreted as such by anyone. Even Carrier admits it requires peshering and imagination to arrive at that conclusion:
http://historical-jesus.sosblogs.com/Hi ... b1-p74.htm
Carrier deals with this one at length, claiming the whole passage is allegory as Paul says explicitly. Paul no-where gives any clue he talking about a real woman :
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=687&start=130#p14501
Carrier is very imaginative and convoluted on that one:
http://historical-jesus.sosblogs.com/Hi ... b1-p77.htm
A seed of David is not enough, a real woman is needed to make that Messiah. I suppose there are some in heaven!!!
So JC was a minister of the circumcision - not very clear here - it does not necessarily mean he was a literal minister. Carrier says all it means is that Jesus had to be given a Jewish body (in the heavens) and appear first to Jews.
Quite a bit far-fetched: Jesus being given a Jewish body (that is instant, Docetist, without going through birth and childhood) to go in the lower heavens so he could be crucified by demons.
And how he would appears to Jews? Levitating a few feet above earth and preaching?
But Christ was not literally rich at all - this seems to be referring to his being rich in spirit in the high heavens, and then descendeing to the lower heaven where he was poor in spirit, there being crucified. This is hardly a good historical reference.
Carrier thinks "poor" here means "poor of power".
Here I demonstrated that "rich" for Paul always means spiritual riches, when poor means material poverty.
http://historical-jesus.sosblogs.com/Hi ... b1-p24.htm
Being found in 'fashion as a man' NOT as a man - he humbled himself. This seems to refer to Jesus descending to the lower heavens and being humbled there, but not as a man. Not a good historical reference.
But you said before Jesus was given a Jewish body. "in fashion" is said by Paul because he thought Jesus was foremost a heavenly spiritual deity, and being a man was an abnormal state for him. Same meaning for "in the likeness of sinful flesh".
Everyone agrees he was crucified - the issue is where? On earth, or in the Air Beneath the Moon?
The mere description that Christ was crucified does not mean he was crucified on earth at all - unles you asume that crucifixions can only happen on earth. But various actions and things happen and exist in the heavens, as we have seen - even a burial in the 3rd heaven (Adam)
What are the probabilities: crucified on earth (many were) against crucified in the heavens (who were?).
For the burial of Adam, see:
http://historical-jesus.sosblogs.com/Hi ... b1-p17.htm
and
http://historical-jesus.sosblogs.com/Hi ... b1-p18.htm
Well, I don't see much here that actually places the crucifixion in Jerusalem at all. We have mention of the stumbling-block, and we have mention of Zion. But nothing that clearly places an earthly crucifixion in Jerusalem. Bernard has to invoked many other passages to try and make a connection, but this could all mean that the skandalon was merely the teaching of the crucifixion and the Deliverer comes out of the heavenly Jerusalem. Not a clear reference to historicity.
Paul wrote on his own and quoted OT in such a way that 'skandalon' is referring to the crucifixion ant it happened in the heartland of the Jews, Zion. That's very clear:
http://historical-jesus.sosblogs.com/Hi ... b1-p22.htm
This is a thorny issue indeed, but Carrier and Doherty argue that the 'brethern of the Lord' is a title for fellow worhsippers, not literal brothers. See below.
I am involved with Carrier on a debate on this issue. I commented, Carrier responded (with plenty of insults, as usual). Then I answered that today (not published yet, under moderation). See
http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/5899
Carrier writres at length on the 'brother of the Lord' :
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=687&p=14620#p14618
I want to add that "the brothers of the Lord" means for Carrier just lesser Christians who were carrying the mail from one church to another, from one city to another city. And all that with a pompous title that Paul never gave to his own Christians, not even to himself or his helpers.
He argues that 'brother of the Lord' is a title referring to fellow brothers in Christ. This may not be an reference to historicity at all.
He argued that "James, the brother of the Lord" was James the brother of John (imagined but not specified as such by Paul), who himself was imagined later and specified as the brother of John, in the gospels and Acts (all fiction, therefore all imagined by their authors, according to Carrier).
OR
"James, the brother of the Lord" was just a lesser Christian (with a very pompous title!) who happened to visit Peter when Paul was there.
Anyway, so be it, if anyone wants to believe these far-fetched explanations in order to prevent (or raise doubts about) Jesus' historicity. I prefer to keep my sanity and the following describes a lot more an earthly human Jesus than a heavenly one:
1) Jesus was a man "the one man Jesus Christ" (Ro 5:15).
2) He was a Jew (said to be descendant of Abraham (Gal 3:16), Israelites (Ro 9:4-5), Jesse (Ro 15:12) & David (Ro 1:3).
3) He came from a woman (Gal 4:4).
4) He was a minister to Jews (Ro 15:8).
5) He was poor, in poverty (2 Cor 8:9) and "humble" (Php 2:8).
6) He was crucified (1 Cor 1:23, 2:2, 2:8, 2 Cor 13:4).
7) This crucifixion happened in the heartland of the Jews. (as explained here:
http://historical-jesus.sosblogs.com/Hi ... b1-p22.htm )
8) He had brothers (contemporaries of Paul) (1 Cor 9:5).
9) These brothers were travelling with "a "sister", a wife" (1 Cor 9:5).
10) One of Jesus' brothers was named "James" (Gal 1:19), whom Paul met several times in Jerusalem (Gal 1:19, 2:9).
11) James lived for a long time in Jerusalem (Gal 1:19, 2:9).
12) James was also an important member of some Jewish sect based in Jerusalem (Gal 2:2, 9, 12).
Cordially, Bernard