Any account of non-Pauline "Christianity"?
Any account of non-Pauline "Christianity"?
As I try to figure out what non-Pauline Christianity may have looked like, I don't seem to be able to actually identify anything that didn't have contact with Paul. Clearly, Paul tells us that the worship of Jesus Christ, or Joshua and Messiah, preceded him. He even says that his cousins were apostles before him. The letter to the Romans is written to Roman Christians with whom Paul had never been in contact. The Jerusalem church presumably had no contact with Paul prior to his meeting with them 14 years after he began his ministry.
But I can't seem to identify anything meaningful about what any potential non-Pauline worships of Joshua the Messiah may have believed. The letters of James and Jude, I do believe represent non-Pauline views, but they tell us essentially nothing about Jesus. The Shepard of Hermas may come from non-Pauline Roman traditions (though even that it not certain) but it again tells us nothing about Jesus. The Didache, IMO, looks to be derived from Pauline views and may even be as late as the 4th century anyway.
Do we have anything at all that hasn't been influenced by Paul and tells us anything meaningful about Jesus worship? (Note I consider the Gospels to have all been influenced by Paul)
Is there any description of what Roman Christianity consisted of prior to the mid 2nd century? Even 1 Clement had knowledge of Paul and treats him as an important apostle, so even that doesn't count.
But I can't seem to identify anything meaningful about what any potential non-Pauline worships of Joshua the Messiah may have believed. The letters of James and Jude, I do believe represent non-Pauline views, but they tell us essentially nothing about Jesus. The Shepard of Hermas may come from non-Pauline Roman traditions (though even that it not certain) but it again tells us nothing about Jesus. The Didache, IMO, looks to be derived from Pauline views and may even be as late as the 4th century anyway.
Do we have anything at all that hasn't been influenced by Paul and tells us anything meaningful about Jesus worship? (Note I consider the Gospels to have all been influenced by Paul)
Is there any description of what Roman Christianity consisted of prior to the mid 2nd century? Even 1 Clement had knowledge of Paul and treats him as an important apostle, so even that doesn't count.
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Re: Any account of non-Pauline "Christianity"?
I for one do not believe in the existence of 'Jewish Christianity' before 70 CE. Most of it is based on Irenaeus's reference to the Ebionites and whatever survives of Hegesippus. But Hegesippus is complete nonsense. Probably an earlier version of Josephus. Hegesippus = proto-Josephus. The intertwining of fact and fiction in early Christianity is difficult to disentangle.
Re: Any account of non-Pauline "Christianity"?
Well there are the Odes of Solomon, which express a “redeemed redeemer” style of Christ worship, but without any Jesus. They are dated to around 125 CE but scholars have given no specific reason why they couldn’t be 1st century.
Re: Any account of non-Pauline "Christianity"?
FWIW I completely agree that the NT is utterly Pauline, bookended by gMatthew and Revelation as furiously Judaizing (and anti-Marcion) reactions to Paul. Perhaps Harold Bloom’s idea of the “anxiety of influence” is relevant here.
Re: Any account of non-Pauline "Christianity"?
The closest thing I guess you could point to as non-Pauline early accounts of Jesus worship are the letters of James and Jude, which unfortunately tell us basically nothing about Jesus.
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Re: Any account of non-Pauline "Christianity"?
Clementine literature?
Apocalypse of Peter, that's early and not Pauline
"And my Father shall set a crown upon mine head, that I may judge the quick and the dead and recompense every man according to his works"
PS This apocalypse I recon is connected to the Clementine sects, aka Ebionites that rejected Paul - the preamble in the apocalypse seems to oppose Paul. "Enoch and Elias shall be sent to teach them that this is the deceiver which must come into the world and do signs and wonders to deceive"
IE James and Peter?
But hell doctrine IMO originated from sects like this
Then there's the Elchasites that Mani came from and the Gnostics and all their sub-groups and offshoots
There's no good clear accounts of these various groups but there sure was a lot of them
This is the picture that's been revealed of diversity pre-Nicea?
Apocalypse of Peter, that's early and not Pauline
"And my Father shall set a crown upon mine head, that I may judge the quick and the dead and recompense every man according to his works"
PS This apocalypse I recon is connected to the Clementine sects, aka Ebionites that rejected Paul - the preamble in the apocalypse seems to oppose Paul. "Enoch and Elias shall be sent to teach them that this is the deceiver which must come into the world and do signs and wonders to deceive"
IE James and Peter?
But hell doctrine IMO originated from sects like this
Then there's the Elchasites that Mani came from and the Gnostics and all their sub-groups and offshoots
There's no good clear accounts of these various groups but there sure was a lot of them
This is the picture that's been revealed of diversity pre-Nicea?
Re: Any account of non-Pauline "Christianity"?
This is interesting, because it ties in to the Sibylline Oracles. I'm not sure of the scholarship on this, but either the Sibylline Oracles quote the Apocalypse of Peter or vice versa. What's interesting about that is that the Romans used the Sibylline Oracles. It seems that many of the Jewish Sibylline Oracles would have been composed by Jews living in Rome. I wonder to what extent Roman Christianity was associated with the Sibylline Oracles from the very beginning.
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Re: Any account of non-Pauline "Christianity"?
to rgprice,
For non Pauline Christianity (that is Jewish Christianity) consult that table: http://historical-jesus.info/t58.html
Cordially, Bernard
For non Pauline Christianity (that is Jewish Christianity) consult that table: http://historical-jesus.info/t58.html
Cordially, Bernard
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Re: Any account of non-Pauline "Christianity"?
Only got a vague idea about those Oracles not sure what to make of them at all. I wonder what's going on there?
When I was checking that apocalypse i found something about an Arabic translation
it's got some more anti-Paul stuff in it i never heard of
Book of Clement
It also says the martyr Stephen was Paul's sister's son, but he shows up in Acts after Stephen's martyrdom
I had my doubts over historicity of this Stephen as he doesn't show up outside Acts. I guess this is another place
When I was checking that apocalypse i found something about an Arabic translation
it's got some more anti-Paul stuff in it i never heard of
Book of Clement
i'm not sure what the heck i'm reading here. It's fantastical stuff, more a romance/story. No historical Jesus evidence as such but an anti-Pauline stream of Christianity for sure..."When the book was finished Peter and Clement sealed it with their seals and Peter said :As God liveth no one ought to divulge these mysteries to Paul or those who resemble him.""
A ton of more anti-Paul antics"When these twelve books were finished the text adds that they were sealed with the seal of each Apostle, " beginning with the seal of my teacher Peter, then with that of Mary the mother of light, and with that of Paul who had tampered with the language of the books."
"And the jealous Lord sent His Son, the mighty Teacher, who came down to the earth and appeared in a covering which He chose to Himself from light, which He materialised and from which He spoke and performed the things which He wished to perform in His world."
"The messenger ushered us into the temple of the idols, and we entered and found Paul praying and worshipping before the idols, and suspicion entered into our mind concerning his faith"
Paul appears suspect throughout the text"And Paul said to him : " And if these men are not able to raise your son to life ? "
The King answered : " I will torment them with every torment and remove them from this world." And Paul said : "I agree with his
condition." Then I, Peter, was summoned along with John to the house of the King"
It also says the martyr Stephen was Paul's sister's son, but he shows up in Acts after Stephen's martyrdom
I had my doubts over historicity of this Stephen as he doesn't show up outside Acts. I guess this is another place
Last edited by davidmartin on Tue Feb 02, 2021 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Any account of non-Pauline "Christianity"?
Only gMark or his source had an influence on other NT writers.
There is only one book attributed to Mark, a compilation of 16 chapters, the shortest Gospel, yet other NT writers copied gMark's Jesus stories word for word.
More than 90% of the Jesus story in GMark is found in gMatthew and over 50% is in GLuke.
It is the supposed teachings of Jesus in gMark that had massive influence on early Christians and writers--never the Epistles.
The NT Pauline Epistles with 87 chapters and supposedly known in many cities of the Roman Empire had no influence at all on early Christians and writers.
The teachings of the Pauline resurrected Jesus are unknown in all NT writings.
If we remove the Epistles from the NT Canon we would not be able to reconstruct what they contained however if gMark was removed gMark the entire Jesus of gMark would remain intact.