The historical Papias was a Jewish rebel during the Bar-Kokhba Revolt fled then in Ephesus

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Giuseppe
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The historical Papias was a Jewish rebel during the Bar-Kokhba Revolt fled then in Ephesus

Post by Giuseppe »

Berachot 62 talks about a rabbi Papias who was imprisoned with rabbi Akiba (the high priest of Bar-Kokhba) and witnessed the death of the latter.

This would make Papias a Jewish rebel during the Bar Kokhba Revolt who then, fled in Ephesus, became Christian.
Secret Alias
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Re: The historical Papias was a Jewish rebel during the Bar-Kokhba Revolt fled then in Ephesus

Post by Secret Alias »

Nonsense. Besides your usual shit you're missing the more interesting discussion in this section - i.e. shitting and farting:
אָמְרוּ מַלְאֲכֵי הַשָּׁרֵת לִפְנֵי הַקָּדוֹשׁ בָּרוּךְ הוּא: זוֹ תּוֹרָה וְזוֹ שְׂכָרָהּ? ״מִמְתִים יָדְךָ ה׳ מִמְתִים וְגוֹ׳״! אָמַר לָהֶם: ״חֶלְקָם בַּחַיִּים״. יָצְתָה בַּת קוֹל וְאָמְרָה: ״אַשְׁרֶיךָ רַבִּי עֲקִיבָא שֶׁאַתָּה מְזֻומָּן לְחַיֵּי הָעוֹלָם הַבָּא״.

The ministering angels said before the Holy One, Blessed be He: This is Torah and this its reward? As it is stated: “From death, by Your hand, O Lord, from death of the world” (Psalms 17:14); Your hand, God, kills and does not save. God said the end of the verse to the ministering angels: “Whose portion is in this life.” And then a Divine Voice emerged and said: Happy are you, Rabbi Akiva, as you are destined for life in the World-to-Come, as your portion is already in eternal life.

11
לֹא יָקֵל אָדָם אֶת רֹאשׁוֹ כְּנֶגֶד שַׁעַר הַמִּזְרָח שֶׁהוּא מְכוּוָּן כְּנֶגֶד בֵּית קׇדְשֵׁי הַקֳּדָשִׁים וְכוּ׳. אָמַר רַב יְהוּדָה אָמַר רַב: לֹא אָמְרוּ אֶלָּא מִן הַצּוֹפִים וְלִפְנִים, וּבְרוֹאֶה. אִיתְּמַר נָמֵי: אָמַר רַבִּי אַבָּא בְּרֵיהּ דְּרַבִּי חִיָּיא בַּר אַבָּא, הָכִי אָמַר רַבִּי יוֹחָנָן: לֹא אָמְרוּ אֶלָּא מִן הַצּוֹפִים וְלִפְנִים, וּבְרוֹאֶה וּבְשֶׁאֵין גָּדֵר, וּבִזְמַן שֶׁהַשְּׁכִינָה שׁוֹרָה.

We learned in the mishna that one may not act irreverently opposite the Eastern Gate, which is aligned with the Holy of Holies. Limiting this halakha, Rav Yehuda said that Rav said: They only said this halakha with regard to irreverent behavior from Mount Scopus [Tzofim] and within, and specifically areas from where one can see the Temple. It is also stated: Rabbi Abba, son of Rabbi Ḥiyya bar Abba, said: Rabbi Yoḥanan said the following: They only said this halakha with regard to Mount Scopus and within, when one can see, and when there is no fence obstructing his view, and when the Divine Presence is resting there, i.e., when the Temple is standing.

12
תָּנוּ רַבָּנַן: הַנִּפְנֶה בִּיהוּדָה, לֹא יִפָּנֶה מִזְרָח וּמַעֲרָב, אֶלָּא צָפוֹן וְדָרוֹם. וּבַגָּלִיל לֹא יִפָּנֶה אֶלָּא מִזְרָח וּמַעֲרָב. וְרַבִּי יוֹסֵי מַתִּיר. שֶׁהָיָה רַבִּי יוֹסֵי אוֹמֵר: לֹא אָסְרוּ אֶלָּא בְּרוֹאֶה, וּבְמָקוֹם שֶׁאֵין שָׁם גָּדֵר, וּבִזְמַן שֶׁהַשְּׁכִינָה שׁוֹרָה. וַחֲכָמִים אוֹסְרִים.

In this context, the Sages taught: One who defecates in Judea should not defecate when facing east and west, for then he is facing Jerusalem; rather he should do so facing north and south. But in the Galilee which is north of Jerusalem, one should only defecate facing east and west. Rabbi Yosei permits doing so, as Rabbi Yosei was wont to say: They only prohibited doing so when one can see the Temple, where there is no fence, and when the Divine Presence is resting there. And the Rabbis prohibit doing so.

13
חֲכָמִים הַיְינוּ תַּנָּא קַמָּא! אִיכָּא בֵּינַיְיהוּ צְדָדִין.

The Gemara argues: But the opinion of the Rabbis, who prohibit this, is identical to that of the first anonymous tanna, who also prohibits doing so. The Gemara replies: The practical difference between them is with regard to the sides, i.e., a place in Judea that is not directly east or west of Jerusalem, or a place in the Galilee that is not directly north of Jerusalem. According to the first tanna, it is prohibited; according to the Rabbis, it is permitted.

14
תַּנְיָא אִידַּךְ: הַנִּפְנֶה בִּיהוּדָה — לֹא יִפָּנֶה מִזְרָח וּמַעֲרָב אֶלָּא צָפוֹן וְדָרוֹם. וּבַגָּלִיל, צָפוֹן וְדָרוֹם — אָסוּר, מִזְרָח וּמַעֲרָב — מוּתָּר. וְרַבִּי יוֹסֵי מַתִּיר. שֶׁהָיָה רַבִּי יוֹסֵי אוֹמֵר: לֹא אָסְרוּ אֶלָּא בְּרוֹאֶה. רַבִּי יְהוּדָה אוֹמֵר: בִּזְמַן שֶׁבֵּית הַמִּקְדָּשׁ קַיָּים — אָסוּר, בִּזְמַן שֶׁאֵין בֵּית הַמִּקְדָּשׁ קַיָּים — מֻותָּר. רַבִּי עֲקִיבָא אוֹסֵר בְּכָל מָקוֹם.

It was taught in another baraita: One who defecates in Judea should not defecate when facing east and west; rather, he should only do so facing north and south. And in the Galilee, defecating while facing north and south is prohibited, while east and west is permitted. And Rabbi Yosei permitted doing so, as Rabbi Yosei was wont to say: They only prohibited doing so when one can see the Temple. Rabbi Yehuda says: When the Temple is standing, it is prohibited, but when the Temple is not standing, it is permitted. The Gemara adds that Rabbi Akiva prohibits defecating anywhere while facing east and west.

15
רַבִּי עֲקִיבָא הַיְינוּ תַּנָּא קַמָּא! אִיכָּא בֵּינַיְיהוּ חוּץ לָאָרֶץ.

The Gemara challenges this: Rabbi Akiva’s position is identical to that of the first, anonymous tanna, who also prohibits doing so. The Gemara responds: The practical difference between them is with regard to places outside of Eretz Yisrael, as according to Rabbi Akiva, even outside of Eretz Yisrael, defecating while facing east and west is prohibited.

16
רַבָּה הֲווֹ שַׁדְיָין לֵיהּ לִבְנֵי מִזְרָח וּמַעֲרָב. אֲזַל אַבָּיֵי שְׁדַנְהוּ צְפוֹן וְדָרוֹם, עָל רַבָּה תָּרְצַנְהוּ. אֲמַר: מַאן הַאי דְּקָמְצַעַר לִי? אֲנָא כְּרַבִּי עֲקִיבָא סְבִירָא לִי דְּאָמַר: בְּכָל מָקוֹם אָסוּר.

The Gemara relates that in Rabba’s bathroom, the bricks were placed east and west in order to ensure that he would defecate facing north and south. Abaye went and placed them north and south, to test if Rabba was particular about their direction or if they had simply been placed east and west incidentally. Rabba entered and fixed them. He said: Who is the one that is upsetting me? I hold in accordance with the opinion of Rabbi Akiva, who said: It is prohibited everywhere.

62a
1
תַּנְיָא, אָמַר רַבִּי עֲקִיבָא: פַּעַם אַחַת נִכְנַסְתִּי אַחַר רַבִּי יְהוֹשֻׁעַ לְבֵית הַכִּסֵּא, וְלָמַדְתִּי מִמֶּנּוּ שְׁלֹשָׁה דְּבָרִים: לָמַדְתִּי שֶׁאֵין נִפְנִין מִזְרָח וּמַעֲרָב אֶלָּא צָפוֹן וְדָרוֹם, וְלָמַדְתִּי שֶׁאֵין נִפְרָעִין מְעוּמָּד אֶלָּא מְיוּשָּׁב, וְלָמַדְתִּי שֶׁאֵין מְקַנְּחִין בְּיָמִין אֶלָּא בִּשְׂמֹאל. אָמַר לוֹ בֶּן עַזַּאי: עַד כָּאן הֵעַזְתָּ פָּנֶיךָ בְּרַבְּךָ?! אָמַר לוֹ תּוֹרָה הִיא, וְלִלְמוֹד אֲנִי צָרִיךְ.

It was taught in a baraita in tractate Derekh Eretz that Rabbi Akiva said: I once entered the bathroom after my teacher Rabbi Yehoshua, and I learned three things from observing his behavior: I learned that one should not defecate while facing east and west, but rather while facing north and south; I learned that one should not uncover himself while standing, but while sitting, in the interest of modesty; and I learned that one should not wipe with his right hand, but with his left. Ben Azzai, a student of Rabbi Akiva, said to him: You were impertinent to your teacher to that extent that you observed that much? He replied: It is Torah, and I must learn.

2
תַּנְיָא, בֶּן עַזַּאי אוֹמֵר: פַּעַם אַחַת נִכְנַסְתִּי אַחַר רַבִּי עֲקִיבָא לְבֵית הַכִּסֵּא, וְלָמַדְתִּי מִמֶּנּוּ שְׁלֹשָׁה דְּבָרִים: לָמַדְתִּי שֶׁאֵין נִפְנִין מִזְרָח וּמַעֲרָב אֶלָּא צָפוֹן וְדָרוֹם, וְלָמַדְתִּי שֶׁאֵין נִפְרָעִין מְעוּמָּד אֶלָּא מְיוּשָּׁב, וְלָמַדְתִּי שֶׁאֵין מְקַנְּחִין בְּיָמִין אֶלָּא בִּשְׂמֹאל. אָמַר לוֹ רַבִּי יְהוּדָה: עַד כָּאן הֵעַזְתָּ פָּנֶיךָ בְּרַבְּךָ?! אָמַר לוֹ: תּוֹרָה הִיא, וְלִלְמוֹד אֲנִי צָרִיךְ.

Similarly, we learned in a baraita: Ben Azzai said: I once entered a bathroom after Rabbi Akiva, and I learned three things from observing his behavior: I learned that one should not defecate while facing east and west, but rather while facing north and south; I learned that one should not uncover himself while standing, but while sitting; and I learned that one should not wipe with his right hand, but with his left. Rabbi Yehuda said to him: You were impertinent to your teacher to that extent? He replied: It is Torah, and I must learn.

3
רַב כָּהֲנָא עָל, גְּנָא תּוּתֵיהּ פּוּרְיֵיהּ דְּרַב. שַׁמְעֵיהּ דְּשָׂח וְשָׂחַק וְעָשָׂה צְרָכָיו. אֲמַר לֵיהּ: דָּמֵי פּוּמֵּיהּ דְּאַבָּא כִּדְלָא שָׂרֵיף תַּבְשִׁילָא. אֲמַר לֵיהּ: כָּהֲנָא, הָכָא אַתְּ? פּוּק, דְּלָאו אֹרַח אַרְעָא. אֲמַר לֵיהּ: תּוֹרָה הִיא, וְלִלְמוֹד אֲנִי צָרִיךְ.

On a similar note, the Gemara relates that Rav Kahana entered and lay beneath Rav’s bed. He heard Rav chatting and laughing with his wife, and seeing to his needs, i.e., having relations with her. Rav Kahana said to Rav: The mouth of Abba, Rav, is like one whom has never eaten a cooked dish, i.e., his behavior was lustful. Rav said to him: Kahana, you are here? Leave, as this is an undesirable mode of behavior. Rav Kahana said to him: It is Torah, and I must learn.

4
מִפְּנֵי מָה אֵין מְקַנְּחִין בְּיָמִין אֶלָּא בִּשְׂמֹאל? אָמַר רָבָא: מִפְּנֵי שֶׁהַתּוֹרָה נִיתְּנָה בְּיָמִין, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר: ״מִימִינוֹ אֵשׁ דָּת לָמוֹ״. רַבָּה בַּר בַּר חָנָה אָמַר: מִפְּנֵי שֶׁהִיא קְרוֹבָה לַפֶּה. וְרַבִּי שִׁמְעוֹן בֶּן לָקִישׁ אָמַר: מִפְּנֵי שֶׁקּוֹשֵׁר בָּהּ תְּפִילִּין. רַב נַחְמָן בַּר יִצְחָק אָמַר: מִפְּנֵי שֶׁמַּרְאֶה בָּהּ טַעֲמֵי תוֹרָה.

The Gemara asks: Why must one not wipe himself with his right hand, but with his left? Rava said: Because the Torah was given with the right hand, as it is stated: “At His right hand was a fiery law unto them” (Deuteronomy 33:2). Rabba bar bar Ḥana said: Because the right hand is close to the mouth, i.e., people eat with the right hand. And Rabbi Shimon ben Lakish said: Because one ties the phylacteries onto his left hand with his right hand. Rav Naḥman bar Yitzḥak said: Because one points to the cantillation notes of the Torah with his right hand.

5
כְּתַנָּאֵי. רַבִּי אֱלִיעֶזֶר אוֹמֵר: מִפְּנֵי שֶׁאוֹכֵל בָּהּ. רַבִּי יְהוֹשֻׁעַ אוֹמֵר: מִפְּנֵי שֶׁכּוֹתֵב בָּהּ. רַבִּי עֲקִיבָא אוֹמֵר: מִפְּנֵי שֶׁמַּרְאֶה בָּהּ טַעֲמֵי תוֹרָה.

The Gemara notes that this is parallel to a tannaitic dispute: Rabbi Eliezer says: One is forbidden to wipe himself with his right hand because he eats with it. Rabbi Yehoshua says: Because he writes with it. Rabbi Akiva says: Because he points to the notes of the Torah with it.

6
אָמַר רַבִּי תַּנְחוּם בַּר חֲנִילַאי: כׇּל הַצָּנוּעַ בְּבֵית הַכִּסֵּא נִצּוֹל מִשְּׁלֹשָׁה דְּבָרִים — מִן הַנְּחָשִׁים, וּמִן הָעַקְרַבִּים, וּמִן הַמַּזִּיקִין. וְיֵשׁ אוֹמְרִים אַף חֲלוֹמוֹתָיו מְיוּשָּׁבִים עָלָיו.

Rabbi Tanḥum bar Ḥanilai said: Anyone who is modest in the bathroom will be saved from three things: From snakes, from scorpions and from demons. And some say that even his dreams will be settling for him.

7
הַהוּא בֵּית הַכִּסֵּא דַּהֲוָה בִּטְבֶרְיָא, כִּי הֲווֹ עָיְילִי בֵּיהּ בֵּי תְרֵי — אֲפִילּוּ בִּימָמָא מִתַּזְּקִי. רַבִּי אַמֵּי וְרַבִּי אַסִּי הֲווֹ עָיְילִי בֵּיהּ חַד וְחַד לְחוֹדֵיהּ — וְלָא מִתַּזְּקִי. אָמְרִי לְהוּ רַבָּנַן: לָא מִסְתְּפֵיתוּ? אָמְרִי לְהוּ: אֲנַן קַבָּלָה גְּמִירִינַן, קַבָּלָה דְּבֵית הַכִּסֵּא — צְנִיעוּתָא וּשְׁתִיקוּתָא. קַבָּלָה דְיִסּוּרֵי — שְׁתִיקוּתָא וּמִבְעֵי רַחֲמֵי.

The Gemara relates: There was a particular bathroom in the city of Tiberias, where, when two would enter it, even during the day, they would be harmed by demons. When Rabbi Ami and Rabbi Asi would each enter alone, they were not harmed. The Sages said to them: Aren’t you afraid? Rabbi Ami and Rabbi Asi said to them: We have learned through tradition: The tradition to avoid danger in the bathroom is to conduct oneself with modesty and silence. The tradition to end suffering is with silence and prayer.

8
אַבָּיֵי מְרַבְּיָא לֵיהּ אִמֵּיהּ אִמְּרָא לְמֵיעַל בַּהֲדֵיהּ לְבֵית הַכִּסֵּא. וּלְרַבֵּי לֵיהּ גַּדְיָא! שָׂעִיר בְּשָׂעִיר מִיחַלַּף.

Because fear of demons in bathrooms was pervasive, the Gemara relates: Abaye’s mother raised a lamb to accompany him to the bathroom. The Gemara objects: She should have raised a goat for him. The Gemara responds: A goat could be interchanged with a goat-demon. Since both the demon and the goat are called sa’ir, they were afraid to bring a goat to a place frequented by demons.

9
רָבָא, מִקַּמֵּי דַּהֲוָה רֵישָׁא, מְקַרְקְשָׁא לֵיהּ בַּת רַב חִסְדָּא אַמְגּוּזָא בְּלָקָנָא. בָּתַר דִּמְלַךְ, עֲבַדָא לֵיהּ כַּוְּותָא, וּמַנְּחָא לֵיהּ יְדָא אַרֵישֵׁיהּ.

Before Rava became the head of the yeshiva, his wife, the daughter of Rav Ḥisda, would rattle a nut in a copper vessel for him. This was in order to fend off demons when he was in the bathroom. After he was chosen to preside as head of the yeshiva, he required an additional degree of protection, so she constructed a window for him, opposite where he would defecate, and placed her hand upon his head.

10
אָמַר עוּלָּא: אֲחוֹרֵי הַגָּדֵר — נִפְנֶה מִיָּד. וּבַבִּקְעָה, כׇּל זְמַן שֶׁמִּתְעַטֵּשׁ וְאֵין חֲבֵרוֹ שׁוֹמֵעַ. אִיסִי בַּר נָתָן מַתְנֵי הָכִי: אֲחוֹרֵי הַגָּדֵר, כׇּל זְמַן שֶׁמִּתְעַטֵּשׁ וְאֵין חֲבֵרוֹ שׁוֹמֵעַ, וּבַבִּקְעָה — כׇּל זְמַן שֶׁאֵין חֲבֵרוֹ רוֹאֵהוּ.

With regard to where one may or may not go to defecate, Ulla said: Behind a fence, one need not distance himself from people and may defecate immediately. In a valley or open field, one must distance himself sufficiently so that if he passes wind, no one will hear him. Isi bar Natan taught as follows: Behind a fence one must distance himself sufficiently so that if he passes wind another does not hear him, and in a valley, one must distance himself sufficiently so that no one can see him.

11
מֵיתִיבִי: יוֹצְאִין מִפֶּתַח בֵּית הַבַּד, וְנִפְנִין לַאֲחוֹרֵי הַגָּדֵר, וְהֵן טְהוֹרִין!

The Gemara raises an objection based on what we learned in a mishna in Teharot: Physical laborers, who usually fall into the category of am ha’aretz and are not generally cautious with regard to the laws of ritual purity, exit from the entrance of the olive press, defecate behind the fence, and are ritually pure. There is no reason to be concerned that they might become impure in the interim. This indicates that a greater distance is unnecessary.

12
בִּטְהָרוֹת הֵקֵלּוּ.

The Gemara responds: With regard to the laws of ritual purity, they were lenient. To ensure maintenance of purity, they were lenient and did not require a greater distance.

13
תָּא שְׁמַע: כַּמָּה יַרְחִקוּ וְיִהְיוּ טְהוֹרִין — כְּדֵי שֶׁיְּהֵא רוֹאֵהוּ! שָׁאנֵי אוֹכְלֵי טְהָרוֹת, דַּאֲקִילּוּ בְּהוּ רַבָּנַן.

Come and hear from what we learned: How far may workers distance themselves, and the fruit and oil will remain pure? They may distance themselves only so far that he still sees him. This contradicts the opinion of Isi bar Natan, who required them to distance themselves sufficiently that they may not be seen. The Gemara responds: Those who eat in purity are different, as the Sages were lenient with them.

14
רַב אָשֵׁי אָמַר: מַאי ״כׇּל זְמַן שֶׁאֵין חֲבֵרוֹ רוֹאֶה״ דְּקָאָמַר אִיסִי בַּר נָתָן — כׇּל זְמַן שֶׁאֵין חֲבֵרוֹ רוֹאֶה אֶת פֵּרוּעוֹ, אֲבָל לְדִידֵיהּ חָזֵי לֵיהּ.

Rav Ashi said: What is the meaning of: So long as another does not see him, which was the standard that Isi bar Natan said? Sufficient that another person cannot see his nakedness, although he does see him.

15
הַהוּא סַפְדָנָא דִּנְחֵית קַמֵּיהּ דְּרַב נַחְמָן, אֲמַר: ״הַאי צָנוּעַ בְּאוֹרְחוֹתָיו הֲוָה״. אֲמַר לֵיהּ רַב נַחְמָן: אַתְּ עֲיַילְתְּ בַּהֲדֵיהּ לְבֵית הַכִּסֵּא וְיָדְעַתְּ אִי צָנוּעַ אִי לָא? דְּתַנְיָא: אֵין קוֹרִין ״צָנוּעַ״ אֶלָּא לְמִי שֶׁצָּנוּעַ בְּבֵית הַכִּסֵּא.

The Gemara relates: There was a particular eulogizer who went to eulogize an important person in the presence of Rav Naḥman. Of the deceased, he said: This man was modest in his ways. Rav Naḥman said to him: Did you go to the bathroom with him and know whether or not he was modest? As we learned in a baraita: One can only describe as modest one who is modest even in the bathroom, when no one else is there.

16
וְרַב נַחְמָן מַאי נָפְקָא לֵיהּ מִינֵּיהּ? מִשּׁוּם דְּתַנְיָא: כְּשֵׁם שֶׁנִּפְרָעִין מִן הַמֵּתִים כָּךְ נִפְרָעִין מִן הַסַּפְדָנִין, וּמִן הָעוֹנִין אַחֲרֵיהֶן.

The Gemara asks: And what difference did it make to Rav Naḥman, that he was so insistent upon the details of whether or not this man was modest? The Gemara answers: Because it was taught in a baraita: Just as the deceased are punished, so too are the eulogizers and those who answer after them.The deceased are punished for transgressions committed in their lifetimes. The eulogizers and those who answer are punished for accepting the attribution of virtues that the deceased did not possess.

17
תָּנוּ רַבָּנַן: אֵיזֶהוּ צָנוּעַ — זֶה הַנִּפְנֶה בַּלַּיְלָה בַּמָּקוֹם שֶׁנִּפְנָה בַּיּוֹם.

The Sages taught in a baraita: Who is a modest person? One who defecates at night where he defecates during the day, i.e., who distances himself at night, in order to relieve himself, no less than he distances himself during the day.

18
אִינִי?! וְהָאָמַר רַב יְהוּדָה אָמַר רַב: לְעוֹלָם יַנְהִיג אָדָם אֶת עַצְמוֹ שַׁחֲרִית וְעַרְבִית, כְּדֵי שֶׁלֹּא יְהֵא צָרִיךְ לְהִתְרַחֵק! וְתוּ, רָבָא בִּימָמָא הֲוָה אָזֵיל עַד מִיל, וּבְלֵילְיָא אָמַר לֵיהּ לְשַׁמָּעֵיהּ: פַּנּוֹ לִי דּוּכְתָּא בִּרְחוֹבָא דְמָתָא. וְכֵן אָמַר לֵיהּ רַבִּי זֵירָא לְשַׁמָּעֵיהּ: חֲזִי מַאן דְּאִיכָּא אֲחוֹרֵי בֵּית חֶבְרַיָּא, דְּבָעֵינָא לְמִפְנֵי! לָא תֵּימָא בַּמָּקוֹם, אֶלָּא אֵימָא: כְּדֶרֶךְ שֶׁנִּפְנָה בַּיּוֹם.

The Gemara challenges: Is that so? Didn’t Rav Yehuda say that Rav said: One must always accustom himself to defecate in the morning and at night, when it is dark, so that he will not need to distance himself? Moreover, during the day, Rava would go up to a mil outside the city, and at night he would tell his servant: Clear a place for me in the city street. And so too, Rabbi Zeira told his servant: See who is behind the study hall, as I need to defecate. These Sages did not defecate at night in the same place where they defecated during the day. Rather, emend the statement and say as follows: In the manner that one defecates during the day, i.e. he should conduct himself at night with the same degree of modesty with which he removes his clothing when defecating during the day.

19
רַב אָשֵׁי אָמַר: אֲפִילּוּ תֵּימָא בַּמָּקוֹם, לֹא נִצְרְכָה אֶלָּא לְקֶרֶן זָוִית.

Rav Ashi said: Even if you say that the text can remain as it was: Where he defecates during the day, it was only necessary in the case of a corner, where one may conceal himself. In the interest of modesty, he should go around the corner at night, just as he does during the day.

20
גּוּפָא. אָמַר רַב יְהוּדָה אָמַר רַב: לְעוֹלָם יַנְהִיג אָדָם אֶת עַצְמוֹ שַׁחֲרִית וְעַרְבִית, כְּדֵי שֶׁלֹּא יְהֵא צָרִיךְ לְהִתְרַחֵק.

The Gemara discusses the matter itself. Rav Yehuda said that Rav said: One must always accustom himself to defecate early in the morning and late at night so that he will not need to distance himself.

21
תַּנְיָא נָמֵי הָכִי, בֶּן עַזַּאי אוֹמֵר: הַשְׁכֵּם וָצֵא, הַעֲרֵב וָצֵא, כְּדֵי שֶׁלֹּא תִּתְרַחֵק. מַשְׁמֵשׁ וָשֵׁב, וְאַל תֵּשֵׁב וּתְמַשְׁמֵשׁ, שֶׁכָּל הַיּוֹשֵׁב וּמְמַשְׁמֵשׁ — אֲפִילּוּ עוֹשִׂין כְּשָׁפִים בְּאַסְפַּמְיָא, בָּאִין עָלָיו.

That opinion was also taught in a baraita: Ben Azzai said: Rise early in the morning and go defecate, wait for evening and go defecate, so that you will not need to distance yourself. He also said: Touch around the anus first to assist in the opening of orifices and then sit; do not sit and then touch, for anyone who sits and then touches, even if sorcery is performed in a distant place like Aspamia, the sorcery will come upon him.

22
וְאִי אִנְּשִׁי וִיתִיב וְאַחַר כָּךְ מַשְׁמֵשׁ, מַאי תַּקַּנְתֵּיהּ? — כִּי קָאֵי, לֵימָא הָכִי: ״לָא לִי לָא לִי, לָא תַּחִים וְלָא תַּחְתִּים, לָא הָנֵי וְלָא מֵהָנֵי, לָא חַרְשֵׁי דְחַרָּשָׁא וְלָא חַרְשֵׁי דְחַרָּשְׁתָא״.

The Gemara says: And if one forgets and sits and then touches, what is his remedy? When he stands, he should recite the following incantation: Not for me, not for me, neither taḥim nor taḥtim, types of sorcery, neither these nor from these, neither the sorcery of a sorcerer nor the sorcery of a sorceress.

62b
1
תַּנְיָא, בֶּן עַזַּאי אוֹמֵר: עַל כׇּל מִשְׁכָּב שְׁכַב, חוּץ מִן הַקַּרְקַע. עַל כׇּל מוֹשָׁב שֵׁב, חוּץ מִן הַקּוֹרָה. אָמַר שְׁמוּאֵל: שֵׁינָה בְּעַמּוּד הַשַּׁחַר כְּאִסְטָמָא לְפַרְזְלָא. יְצִיאָה בְּעַמּוּד הַשַּׁחַר כְּאִסְטָמָא לְפַרְזְלָא.

Continuing with the subject of health, it was taught in a baraita: Ben Azzai says: On all beds, lie, except for the ground. On all seats, sit, except for a beam, lest you fall off. Shmuel said: Sleeping at dawn is as effective as forging [istema] is to iron. A bowel movement at dawn is as beneficial as forging is to iron.

2
בַּר קַפָּרָא הֲוָה מְזַבֵּן מִילֵּי בְּדִינָרֵי: עַד דְּכָפְנַתְּ — אֱכוֹל. עַד דְּצָחֵית — שְׁתִי, עַד דְּרָתְחָא קִדְרָךָ — שְׁפוֹךְ. קַרְנָא קָרְיָא בְּרוֹמִי, בַּר מְזַבֵּין תְּאֵנֵי, תְּאֵנֵי דַּאֲבוּךְ זַבֵּין.

Similarly, the Gemara relates: Bar Kappara would sell sayings for dinars; he would express his ideas in brief maxims. For example: If you are hungry, eat; do not delay eating, as the hunger may pass and your food will be of no benefit. So too, if you are thirsty, drink; while the pot is still boiling, pour it out before it cools off. This is a metaphor for relieving oneself. Bar Kappara also said: When the horn is sounded in Rome, signifying that there is demand for figs in the Roman market, son of a fig seller, sell your father’s figs, even without his permission, so as not to miss the opportunity.

3
אֲמַר לְהוּ אַבָּיֵי לְרַבָּנָן: כִּי עָיְילִיתוּ בִּשְׁבִילֵי דְמָחוֹזָא לְמִיפַּק בֵּיהּ בְּחַקְלָא, לָא תֶּחֱזוֹ לָא לְהַךְ גִּיסָא וְלָא לְהַךְ גִּיסָא, דִּלְמָא יָתְבֵי נְשֵׁי, וְלָאו אוֹרַח אַרְעָא לְאִסְתַּכּוֹלֵי בְּהוּ.

Abaye said to the Sages: When you enter the paths of the city of Meḥoza in order to go out and defecate in a field, look neither to one side nor to the other, as perhaps women are sitting there and it is improper to look at them.

4
רַב סָפְרָא עָל לְבֵית הַכִּסֵּא. אֲתָא רַבִּי אַבָּא, נְחַר לֵיהּ אַבָּבָא. אֲמַר לֵיהּ: לֵיעוּל מָר. בָּתַר דִּנְפַק אֲמַר לֵיהּ: עַד הַשְׁתָּא לָא עֲיַילְתְּ לְשֵׂעִיר, וּגְמַרְתְּ לָךְ מִילֵּי דְשֵׂעִיר! לָאו הָכִי תְּנַן: מְדוּרָה הָיְתָה שָׁם וּבֵית הַכִּסֵּא שֶׁל כָּבוֹד. וְזֶה הָיָה כְּבוֹדוֹ: מְצָאוֹ נָעוּל — בְּיָדוּעַ שֶׁיֵּשׁ שָׁם אָדָם, מְצָאוֹ פָּתוּחַ — בְּיָדוּעַ שֶׁאֵין שָׁם אָדָם. אַלְמָא לָאו אוֹרַח אַרְעָא הוּא!

The Gemara relates: Rav Safra once entered a bathroom, when Rabbi Abba came along. To determine if he could enter, Rabbi Abba coughed next to the door. Rav Safra said to him: Enter, master. When he came out, Rabbi Abba said to him: Until now, you never entered Seir, the land of the Edomites, who are not strict in their practice of modesty, and yet you already learned the customs of Seir? Didn’t we learn in the mishna concerning the Temple: There was a fire next to the ritual bath, and a bathroom of honor. And this was its honor: If one found it locked, it was known that someone was inside; if he found it open, it was known that no one was inside. Speaking in the bathroom is not a desired mode of behavior.

5
וְהוּא סָבַר מְסוּכָּן הוּא. דְּתַנְיָא, רַבָּן שִׁמְעוֹן בֶּן גַּמְלִיאֵל אוֹמֵר: עַמּוּד הַחוֹזֵר מֵבִיא אֶת הָאָדָם לִידֵי הִדְרוֹקָן. סִילוֹן הַחוֹזֵר מֵבִיא אֶת הָאָדָם לִידֵי יֵרָקוֹן.

The Gemara explains the opinion of Rav Safra, who told Rabbi Abba that he could enter while in the bathroom: Rav Safra held that it was dangerous for Rabbi Abba. If he waited and was uncertain whether or not he could enter, he would endanger himself. As it was taught in a baraita: Rabbi Shimon ben Gamliel says: A column of feces that is held back because one cannot relieve himself causes dropsy [hidrokan]. A stream [silon] of urine that is held back causes jaundice.

6
רַבִּי אֶלְעָזָר עָל לְבֵית הַכִּסֵּא. אֲתָא הַהוּא רוֹמָאָה דַּחֲקֵיהּ. קָם רַבִּי אֶלְעָזָר וּנְפַק. אֲתָא דְּרָקֹונָא שַׁמְטֵיהּ לְכַרְכְּשֵׁיהּ. קָרֵי עֲלֵיהּ רַבִּי אֶלְעָזָר: ״וְאֶתֵּן אָדָם תַּחְתֶּיךָ״, אַל תִּקְרֵי ״אָדָם״ אֶלָּא ״אֱדוֹם״.

The Gemara relates that Rabbi Elazar entered a bathroom. This Roman came and pushed him away. Rabbi Elazar stood and left, and a serpent came and ripped out the intestines of the Roman. Rabbi Elazar recited the following verse about the Roman: “Therefore I will give man [adam] for you” (Isaiah 43:4); do not read it as adam, but rather read it as Edom, meaning a Roman.

7
״וְאָמַר לַהֲרָגֲךָ וַתָּחָס עָלֶיךָ״.

With regard to modesty in a bathroom, the Gemara cites an additional biblical allusion. When David found Saul in the cave and spared him, tearing the corner of his coat, he said to him: “Behold this day, your eyes have seen how the Lord has delivered you today into my hand in the cave, and he said to kill you; and you spared you” (I Samuel 24:10).

8
״וְאָמַר״, ״וְאָמַרְתִּי״ מִיבְּעֵי לֵיהּ! ״וַתָּחָס״, ״וְחַסְתִּי״ מִיבְּעֵי לֵיהּ! אָמַר רַבִּי אֶלְעָזָר: אָמַר לוֹ דָּוִד לְשָׁאוּל: מִן הַתּוֹרָה בֶּן הֲרִיגָה אַתָּה, שֶׁהֲרֵי רוֹדֵף אַתָּה, וְהַתּוֹרָה אָמְרָה: בָּא לְהׇרְגְּךָ — הַשְׁכֵּם לְהָרְגוֹ, אֶלָּא צְנִיעוּת שֶׁהָיְתָה בְּךָ, הִיא חָסָה עָלֶיךָ.

The Gemara asks: Why does the verse say: And he said? It should say: And I said. Why does the verse say: And you spared? It should say: And I spared. Rather, Rabbi Elazar said: David said to Saul: By Torah law, you should be killed, as you are a pursuer who seeks to kill me, and the Torah says: If one comes to kill you, kill him first. But it was the modesty that you displayed that spared you.

9
וּמַאי הִיא? — דִּכְתִיב: ״וַיָּבֹא אֶל גִּדְרוֹת הַצֹּאן עַל הַדֶּרֶךְ וְשָׁם מְעָרָה וַיָּבֹא שָׁאוּל לְהָסֵךְ אֶת רַגְלָיו״. תָּנָא: גָּדֵר לִפְנִים מִן גָּדֵר, וּמְעָרָה לְפָנִים מִמְּעָרָה לְהָסֵךְ. אָמַר רַבִּי אֶלְעָזָר: מְלַמֵּד שֶׁסִּיכֵּךְ עַצְמוֹ כְּסוּכָּה.

And what is this modesty? As it is written: “And he came to the sheepcotes by the way, where there was a cave, and Saul went in to cover his feet, to defecate. Now David and his men were sitting in the innermost parts of the cave” (I Samuel 24:3). It was taught that the Sages said: There was a fence within a fence, and a cave within a cave, and Saul entered to defecate in the interest of modesty. With regard to the use of the term, to cover his feet, Rabbi Elazar said: This teaches that, even there, he covered himself with his garment like a sukka.

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״וַיָּקָם דָּוִד וַיִּכְרֹת אֶת כְּנַף הַמְּעִיל אֲשֶׁר לְשָׁאוּל בַּלָּט״, אָמַר רַבִּי יוֹסֵי בְּרַבִּי חֲנִינָא: כׇּל הַמְבַזֶּה אֶת הַבְּגָדִים, סוֹף אֵינוֹ נֶהֱנֶה מֵהֶם, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר: ״וְהַמֶּלֶךְ דָּוִד זָקֵן בָּא בַּיָּמִים וַיְכַסֻּהוּ בַּבְּגָדִים וְלֹא יִחַם לוֹ״.

The Gemara continues with a homiletic interpretation of the verse: “Then David arose, and cut off the corner of Saul’s robe privily” (I Samuel 24:4). Rabbi Yosei, son of Rabbi Ḥanina, said: Anyone who treats clothing with contempt, like David who tore Saul’s robe for no reason, will be punished in that ultimately he will not benefit from his garments, as it is stated: “Now King David was old and stricken in years; and they covered him with clothes, but he could get no heat” (I Kings 1:1).

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״אִם ה׳ הֱסִיתְךָ בִי יָרַח מִנְחָה״, אָמַר רַבִּי אֶלְעָזָר: אָמַר לֵיהּ הַקָּדוֹשׁ בָּרוּךְ הוּא לְדָוִד: ״מֵסִית״ קָרֵית לִי? הֲרֵי אֲנִי מַכְשִׁילְךָ בְּדָבָר שֶׁאֲפִילּוּ תִּינוֹקוֹת שֶׁל בֵּית רַבָּן יוֹדְעִים אוֹתוֹ. דִּכְתִיב: ״כִּי תִשָּׂא אֶת רֹאשׁ בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל לִפְקֻדֵיהֶם וְנָתְנוּ אִישׁ כֹּפֶר נַפְשׁוֹ וְגוֹ׳״. מִיָּד, ״וַיַּעֲמֹד שָׂטָן עַל יִשְׂרָאֵל״, וּכְתִיב: ״וַיָּסֶת אֶת דָּוִד בָּהֶם לֵאמֹר לֵךְ מְנֵה אֶת יִשְׂרָאֵל״. וְכֵיוָן דִּמְנִינְהוּ לָא שְׁקַל מִינַּיְיהוּ כּוֹפֶר. דִּכְתִיב: ״וַיִּתֵּן ה׳ דֶּבֶר בְּיִשְׂרָאֵל מֵהַבֹּקֶר וְעַד עֵת מוֹעֵד״.

As for David’s statement to Saul: “If it be the Lord that has incited you against me, let Him accept an offering” (I Samuel 26:19), Rabbi Elazar said that the Holy One, Blessed be He, said to David: Do you call Me an inciter? In retribution, I will cause you to fail in a matter that even schoolchildren know, as it is written: “When you take the sum of the children of Israel, according to their number, then shall they give every man a ransom for his soul unto the Lord, when you number them; that there be no plague among them, when you number them” (Exodus 30:12). Immediately after God said this to David, “Satan stood up against Israel and incited David to number Israel” (I Chronicles 21:1). Moreover, it is written: “And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and He incited David against them, saying: Go, number Israel and Judea” (II Samuel 24:1). The proportional response to David’s calling God an inciter was that He incited David. And when he counted them, he did not take a ransom from them, and he was punished, as it is written: “So the Lord sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning even to the appointed time” (II Samuel 24:15).

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מַאי ״עֵת מוֹעֵד״? אָמַר שְׁמוּאֵל סָבָא חַתְנֵיהּ דְּרַבִּי חֲנִינָא מִשְּׁמֵיהּ דְּרַבִּי חֲנִינָא: מִשְּׁעַת שְׁחִיטַת הַתָּמִיד עַד שְׁעַת זְרִיקָתוֹ. רַבִּי יוֹחָנָן אָמַר: עַד חֲצוֹת מַמָּשׁ.

The Gemara asks: What is the meaning of the appointed time? Shmuel the elder, father-in-law of Rabbi Ḥanina, said in the name of Rabbi Ḥanina: It means from when the daily offering is slaughtered until when its blood is sprinkled. Rabbi Yoḥanan said: It means precisely until noon.

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״וַיֹּאמֶר לַמַּלְאָךְ הַמַּשְׁחִית בָּעָם רַב״. אָמַר רַבִּי אֶלְעָזָר: אֲמַר לֵיהּ הַקָּדוֹשׁ בָּרוּךְ הוּא לְמַלְאָךְ: טוֹל לִי רַב שֶׁבָּהֶם, שֶׁיֵּשׁ בּוֹ לִיפָּרַע מֵהֶם כַּמָּה חוֹבוֹת. בְּאוֹתָהּ שָׁעָה מֵת אֲבִישַׁי בֶּן צְרוּיָה, שֶׁשָּׁקוּל כְּרוּבָּהּ שֶׁל סַנְהֶדְרִין.

It is also stated there: “The Lord repented Him of the evil and said to the angel that destroyed the many [rav] people: It is enough; now stay your hand” (II Samuel 24:16). Explaining the meaning of the word rav, Rabbi Elazar said that the Holy One, Blessed be He, said to the angel: Take for me a great one [rav] from among them, who is worthy of defraying several of Israel’s debts. As a result, at that moment Avishai ben Tzeruya, who was equivalent to the majority of the Sanhedrin, died. His death atoned for the entire nation.
Giuseppe
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Re: The historical Papias was a Jewish rebel during the Bar-Kokhba Revolt fled then in Ephesus

Post by Giuseppe »

The reference is found in André Wautier.

http://hierosolis.overblog.com/comment- ... a.-wautier
Stuart
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Re: The historical Papias was a Jewish rebel during the Bar-Kokhba Revolt fled then in Ephesus

Post by Stuart »

Secret Alias wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:10 am Nonsense. Besides ... you're missing the more interesting discussion in this section - i.e. shitting and farting:

...
Wow, that was some debate. I think I need a bathroom break.
Secret Alias
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Re: The historical Papias was a Jewish rebel during the Bar-Kokhba Revolt fled then in Ephesus

Post by Secret Alias »

No wonder the Jewish people are so funny. They have the most absurd religion.
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