The fasting of Jesus is anti-marcionite, too

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Giuseppe
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The fasting of Jesus is anti-marcionite, too

Post by Giuseppe »

Mark 9:29 :
And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting

Matthew 11:18:
18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ But wisdom is proved right by her deeds.”

Really, the Jesus of protoJohn came "neither eating nor drinking":

Meanwhile his disciples urged him, “Rabbi, eat something.”
32 But he said to them, “I have food to eat that you know nothing about.”
33 Then his disciples said to each other, “Could someone have brought him food?”
34 “My food,” said Jesus, “is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.

John 6:27:

27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”

Probably Marcion said that Jesus didn't eat because he was without body.

To justify the fact that Jesus didn't eat without appeal to his absence of body, the Judaizers invented the idea that Jesus did the fasting.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: The fasting of Jesus is anti-marcionite, too

Post by Joseph D. L. »

Gospel of the Lord:

And they said unto him, "Why do the disciples of John fast often, and make prayers, and likewise the disciples of the Pharisees; but thine eat and drink? And he said unto them, "Can ye make the sons of the bridal chamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them? But the days will come; and when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, then will they fast in those days."


"The Son of man is coming eating and drinking, and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! And wisdom was justified of all her children". And one of the Pharisees desired him that he would eat with him. And he went into the Pharisee`s house, and reclined to meat.

You're analysis doesn't make since. If the canonical Gospels were anti-Marcionite, Jesus would be eating and drinking to prove that he has a physical, corporeal body. The Marcionite Gospel criticizes the followers of John fasting often, while Jesus eats, meat even!
Giuseppe
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Re: The fasting of Jesus is anti-marcionite, too

Post by Giuseppe »

Attention, please. The canonical Gospels (a better term would be: Judaizers) had to play with the Gnostic hearsay already in action. Hence, if the hearsay was already:

Jesus didn't eat nor drink

...then they had only to invent a new reason different from the Gnostic reason, and make it explicit to eclipse entirely the previous implicit reason.

For example, the true reason Jesus says:

Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.

(Luke 9:58)

...is that the Jesus's body, being only ethereal/vanishing, could not be put on a place as any carnal object could usually.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: The fasting of Jesus is anti-marcionite, too

Post by Giuseppe »

Joseph D.L. you are a real Genius!

18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ But wisdom is proved right by her deeds.”

This above is surely another bastard perverse Judaizing deformation of the original myth reported by Irenaeus:


“In addition to his blasphemy against God Himself, he advanced this also, truly speaking as with the mouth of the devil, and saying all things in direct opposition to the truth—that Cain, and those like him, and the Sodomites, and the Egyptians, and others like them, and, in fine, all the nations who walked in all sorts of abomination, were saved by the Lord, on His descending into Hades, and on their running unto Him, and that they welcomed Him into their kingdom.”
But the serpent which was in Marcion declared that Abel, and Enoch, and Noah, and those other righteous men who sprang from the patriarch Abraham, with all the prophets, and those who were pleasing to God, did not partake in salvation. For since these men, he says, knew that their God was constantly tempting them, so now they suspected that He was tempting them, and did not run to Jesus, or believe His announcement: and for this reason he declared that their souls remained in Hades.

(Irenaeus, From Book I, chap. 27,Against Heresies)

...and this:

19. Death was struck with dismay on beholding a new visitant descend into Hades, not bound by the chains of that place. Why, O porters of Hades, were you scared at sight of Him? What was the unwonted fear that possessed you? Death fled, and his flight betrayed his cowardice. The holy prophets ran unto Him, and Moses the Lawgiver, and Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob; David also, and Samuel, and Esaias, and John the Baptist, who bore witness when he asked, Are You He that should come, or look we for another Matthew 11:3? All the Just were ransomed, whom death had swallowed; for it behooved the King whom they had proclaimed, to become the redeemer of His noble heralds. Then each of the Just said, O death, where is your victory? O grave, where is your sting ? For the Conqueror has redeemed us.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/310114.htm

A John "who is fasting" is a soul in Sheol, suffering in Sheol for his sins before the demiurge.

Jesus "who comes eating and drinking" is a Jesus who descends in Sheol winning the death.

Jesus "in company of sinners" is the marcionite Jesus who in Sheol saves only the souls of SODOMITES, CAIN, SERPENT , AMALEK, etc.

The OT prophets (just as the "pharisees") prefer the "fasting", i.e. suffering again and again in Sheol, more than following Jesus in his ascension from Sheol.


This myth:

Image ...is the key that allows to decipher a lot of things in our Judaizing Gospels (from the descent to "Capernaum" to the enigmatic arrest of John)!!!

I am very luck to discover this! I should be accepted as Messiah in this forum also only for this! :cheers:
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
andrewcriddle
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Re: The fasting of Jesus is anti-marcionite, too

Post by andrewcriddle »

Giuseppe wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:03 am Mark 9:29 :
And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting

and fasting is probably not original in Mark 9:29
See for example In the name of Jesus

Andrew Criddle
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: The fasting of Jesus is anti-marcionite, too

Post by Joseph D. L. »


When Jesus descended into Hell, the sinners listened to his words and were all saved. But the saints, believing as usual that they were being put to the test, rejected his words and were all damned.

Can someone give a source for this? The quote is found in Freke and Gandy's Jesus and the Lost Goddess, whom are quoting from Jacques Lacarriere's The Gnostics, who himself is apparently quoting from Marcion's Antithesis, yet it is nowhere to be found in online searches through the Antithesis. Jacques Lacarriere is not a trustworthy source.

One point to mention, this runs contrary to the idea that Capernaum is indicative of Sheol/Material realm, as the quote is more inline with Gospel of Nicodemus.
Giuseppe
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Re: The fasting of Jesus is anti-marcionite, too

Post by Giuseppe »

Joseph D. L. wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:22 am
When Jesus descended into Hell, the sinners listened to his words and were all saved. But the saints, believing as usual that they were being put to the test, rejected his words and were all damned.

Can someone give a source for this?
It is clearly a short resume of my quote above from Irenaeus, Book I, chap. 27,Against Heresies.
One point to mention, this runs contrary to the idea that Capernaum is indicative of Sheol/Material realm, as the quote is more inline with Gospel of Nicodemus.
why? Heracleon says clearly that the descent to Capernaum coincides with the descent to Sheol. Remember that one of the more sure things with Marcion's Gospel is his incipit: "descended from above to Capernaum". To be precisely in that point (where a descent is the subject), in the incipit, Capernaum has to mean Sheol, given all our background knowledge.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: The fasting of Jesus is anti-marcionite, too

Post by Joseph D. L. »

Giuseppe wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:30 am
It is clearly a short resume of my quote above from Irenaeus, Book I, chap. 27,Against Heresies.

1. Cerdo was one who took his system from the followers of Simon, and came to live at Rome in the time of Hyginus, who held the ninth place in the episcopal succession from the apostles downwards. He taught that the God proclaimed by the law and the prophets was not the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the former was known, but the latter unknown; while the one also was righteous, but the other benevolent.

2. Marcion of Pontus succeeded him, and developed his doctrine. In so doing, he advanced the most daring blasphemy against Him who is proclaimed as God by the law and the prophets, declaring Him to be the author of evils, to take delight in war, to be infirm of purpose, and even to be contrary to Himself. But Jesus being derived from that father who is above the God that made the world, and coming into Judæa in the times of Pontius Pilate the governor, who was the procurator of Tiberius Cæsar, was manifested in the form of a man to those who were in Judæa, abolishing the prophets and the law, and all the works of that God who made the world, whom also he calls Cosmocrator. Besides this, he mutilates the Gospel which is according to Luke, removing all that is written respecting the generation of the Lord, and setting aside a great deal of the teaching of the Lord, in which the Lord is recorded as most dearly confessing that the Maker of this universe is His Father. He likewise persuaded his disciples that he himself was more worthy of credit than are those apostles who have handed down the Gospel to us, furnishing them not with the Gospel, but merely a fragment of it. In like manner, too, he dismembered the Epistles of Paul, removing all that is said by the apostle respecting that God who made the world, to the effect that He is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and also those passages from the prophetical writings which the apostle quotes, in order to teach us that they announced beforehand the coming of the Lord.

3. Salvation will be the attainment only of those souls which had learned his doctrine; while the body, as having been taken from the earth, is incapable of sharing in salvation. In addition to his blasphemy against God Himself, he advanced this also, truly speaking as with the mouth of the devil, and saying all things in direct opposition to the truth — that Cain, and those like him, and the Sodomites, and the Egyptians, and others like them, and, in fine, all the nations who walked in all sorts of abomination, were saved by the Lord, on His descending into Hades, and on their running unto Him, and that they welcomed Him into their kingdom. But the serpent which was in Marcion declared that Abel, and Enoch, and Noah, and those other righteous men who sprang from the patriarch Abraham, with all the prophets, and those who were pleasing to God, did not partake in salvation. For since these men, he says, knew that their God was constantly tempting them, so now they suspected that He was tempting them, and did not run to Jesus, or believe His announcement: and for this reason he declared that their souls remained in Hades.

4. But since this man is the only one who has dared openly to mutilate the Scriptures, and unblushingly above all others to inveigh against God, I purpose specially to refute him, convicting him out of his own writings; and, with the help of God, I shall overthrow him out of those discourses of the Lord and the apostles, which are of authority with him, and of which he makes use. At present, however, I have simply been led to mention him, that you might know that all those who in any way corrupt the truth, and injuriously affect the preaching of the Church, are the disciples and successors of Simon Magus of Samaria. Although they do not confess the name of their master, in order all the more to seduce others, yet they do teach his doctrines. They set forth, indeed, the name of Christ Jesus as a sort of lure, but in various ways they introduce the impieties of Simon; and thus they destroy multitudes, wickedly disseminating their own doctrines by the use of a good name, and, through means of its sweetness and beauty, extending to their hearers the bitter and malignant poison of the serpent, the great author of apostasy. Revelation 12:9.

Okay, but this is not Marcion saying it. This is Irenaeus reporting on Marcion, and his accuracy is questionable at best. His account is to showcase a pettiness to Marcion's doctrine, and was probably something Marcion didn't believe.
why? Heracleon says clearly that the descent to Capernaum coincides with the descent to Sheol. Remember that one of the more sure things with Marcion's Gospel is his incipit: "descended from above to Capernaum". To be precisely in that point (where a descent is the subject), in the incipit, Capernaum has to mean Sheol, given all our background knowledge.
Heracleon's interpretation is not meaningful to what Marcion himself believed or what was in Gospel of the Lord. Again, the above is more in line with the content found in Gospel of Nicodemus, where the Harrowing of Hell is found, and not Gospel of the Lord.
Giuseppe
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Re: The fasting of Jesus is anti-marcionite, too

Post by Giuseppe »

Joseph D. L. wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:52 am Okay, but this is not Marcion saying it. This is Irenaeus reporting on Marcion, and his accuracy is questionable at best. His account is to showcase a pettiness to Marcion's doctrine, and was probably something Marcion didn't believe.
No, Justin also reports the same myth about Marcion. Two independent witnesses of the same myth held by a rival sect. Differently from you, I don't like to judaize Marcion (it is no an insult, only a lucid observation of what if for me the your view).

The equation Capernaum== Sheol is the Pillar of my entire theorem.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: The fasting of Jesus is anti-marcionite, too

Post by Joseph D. L. »

Giuseppe wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:58 am
No, Justin also reports the same myth about Marcion.
He doesn't. These are the only two instances where Justin refers to Marcion and his doctrine:

And there is Marcion, a man of Pontus, who is even at this day alive, and teaching his disciples to believe in some other god greater than the Creator. And he, by the aid of the devils, has caused many of every nation to speak blasphemies, and to deny that God is the maker of this universe, and to assert that some other being, greater than He, has done greater works.

///

And, as we said before, the devils put forward Marcion of Pontus, who is even now teaching men to deny that God is the maker of all things in heaven and on earth, and that the Christ predicted by the prophets is His Son, and preaches another god besides the Creator of all, and likewise another son. And this man many have believed, as if he alone knew the truth, and laugh at us, though they have no proof of what they say, but are carried away irrationally as lambs by a wolf, and become the prey of atheistical doctrines, and of devils. For they who are called devils attempt nothing else than to seduce men from God who made them, and from Christ His first-begotten; and those who are unable to raise themselves above the earth they have riveted, and do now rivet, to things earthly, and to the works of their own hands; but those who devote themselves to the contemplation of things divine, they secretly beat back; and if they have not a wise sober-mindedness, and a pure and passionless life, they drive them into godlessness.

That's it.

Justin, if I remember correctly, does infer the descent into hell belief, but doesn't attribute it to Marcion.
Two independent witnesses of the same myth held by a rival sect. Differently from you, I don't like to judaize Marcion (it is no an insult, only a lucid observation of what if for me the your view).
But you have not given sufficient evidence as to why your view is correct.
The equation Capernaum== Sheol is the Pillar of my entire theorem.
But can you provide sufficient evidence that this was what Marcion believed, and the interpretation of those who came long after he had died?

I'm not denying that eventually Marcion's beliefs were turned into allegories, only if Marcion himself thought this.
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