Marcion's Gospel

[Secret Alias]

Regarding why Justin does not appear to have known of Marcion's writings

If he doesn't know Paul how would he know about Marcion who presumably was centrally concerned with Paul.

[John2]

Regarding why Justin does not appear to have known of Marcion's writings

If he doesn't know Paul how would he know about Marcion who presumably was centrally concerned with Paul.

That's a great question, though I gather it is not certain that Justin did not know Paul. I recall that the evidence for it is thin, but it's worth taking another look at that question.

[John2]

But unless he made it up, Justin was at least aware of Marcion's name, place of origin and some of his doctrines, and I figure that if nothing else, that was brought to his attention by other Christians who were aware of him and who were alive during Marcion's time like Justin claims to have been.

[Ben C. Smith]

Regarding why Justin does not appear to have known of Marcion's writings, while I've seen it speculated that perhaps they weren't as important to him as they were to Irenaeus (assuming for the moment that the latter did know of them like he says), I wonder if instead it could be that they weren't published by the time Justin was writing.

I suspect it is simply a matter of which of Justin's writings we have at hand and which have been lost to us:

Justin Martyr, 1 Apology 26.5-7: 5 And there is Marcion, a man of Pontus, who is even at this day alive, and teaching his disciples to believe in some other god greater than the Creator. And he, by the aid of the devils, has caused many of every nation to speak blasphemies, and to deny that God is the maker of this universe, and to assert that some other being, greater than He, has done greater works. 6 All who take their opinions from these men, are, as we before said, called Christians; just as also those who do not agree with the philosophers in their doctrines, have yet in common with them the name of philosophers given to them. 7 And whether they perpetrate those fabulous and shameful deeds — the upsetting of the lamp, and promiscuous intercourse, and eating human flesh — we know not; but we do know that they are neither persecuted nor put to death by you, at least on account of their opinions. But I have a treatise against all the heresies that have existed already composed [σύνταγμα κατὰ πασῶν τῶν γεγενημένων αἱρέσεων συντεταγμένον], which, if you wish to read it, I will give you.

His Apologies and his Dialogue are written for very specific purposes, ones which we would not expect to entail a lot of discussion of Marcion. If we had this treatise of his, often referred to as the Syntagma, I bet the state of play would be different. We may, in fact, have it in an indirect way: embedded or plagiarized by Irenaeus and/or by Tertullian or others.

[John2]

Regarding why Justin does not appear to have known of Marcion's writings, while I've seen it speculated that perhaps they weren't as important to him as they were to Irenaeus (assuming for the moment that the latter did know of them like he says), I wonder if instead it could be that they weren't published by the time Justin was writing.

I suspect it is simply a matter of which of Justin's writings we have at hand and which have been lost to us:

Justin Martyr, 1 Apology 26.5-7: 5 And there is Marcion, a man of Pontus, who is even at this day alive, and teaching his disciples to believe in some other god greater than the Creator. And he, by the aid of the devils, has caused many of every nation to speak blasphemies, and to deny that God is the maker of this universe, and to assert that some other being, greater than He, has done greater works. 6 All who take their opinions from these men, are, as we before said, called Christians; just as also those who do not agree with the philosophers in their doctrines, have yet in common with them the name of philosophers given to them. 7 And whether they perpetrate those fabulous and shameful deeds — the upsetting of the lamp, and promiscuous intercourse, and eating human flesh — we know not; but we do know that they are neither persecuted nor put to death by you, at least on account of their opinions. But I have a treatise against all the heresies that have existed already composed [σύνταγμα κατὰ πασῶν τῶν γεγενημένων αἱρέσεων συντεταγμένον], which, if you wish to read it, I will give you.

His Apologies and his Dialogue are written for very specific purposes, ones which we would not expect to entail a lot of discussion of Marcion. If we had this treatise of his, often referred to as the Syntagma, I bet the state of play would be different. We may, in fact, have it in an indirect way: embedded or plagiarized by Irenaeus and/or by Tertullian or others.

I'm adding that to my wish list along with Papias, Hegesippus and the original (presumably pre-interpolated) Antiquities, then.

[John2]

Regarding whether or not Irenaeus knew of Marcion's writings, I took a look at everything he says about Marcion, and while he doesn't directly cite anything, he does address some of his (or his followers') positions, and I don't see why he couldn't have learned about them directly from his writings or indirectly from Justin or Hegesippus (or whoever else). And on a side note, I also give him some points for knowing (or having heard) Polycarp.

[John2]

So thus far, Justin, Hegesippus (even though he doesn't say much in the excerpts we have) and Irenaeus don't seem like a bad start, and I think the latter was at least in a position to have access to or know about Marcion's writings (directly and/or via Justin or Hegesippus or whoever else), and he does claim to have known of them. And I can understand if Marcion's gospel seemed like an altered gospel of Luke to him (and/or his sources) even if, to judge from later writers, it contained bits of Mark or Matthew, since those overlaps can be explained by Luke (in all its versions) using Mark (and possibly a version of Matthew) from the get go and Marcion adding bits from other gospels and whatever else he thought supported his point of view (similar to the gospel of Thomas).

[Secret Alias]

I don't know how you define "know" but Against Heresies 4.12.12 has Irenaeus promise to refute Marcion from what remains of his deletions from Luke and Paul.

[John2]

I don't know how you define "know" but Against Heresies 4.12.12 has Irenaeus promise to refute Marcion from what remains of his deletions from Luke and Paul.

I don't see any mention of Marcion in any part of AH 4.12, and AH 4.12 appears to end at 4.12.5:


http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103412.htm

[Secret Alias]

Sorry in my car. 3.12.12