1 Clement & the Gospel of Matthew?

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John2
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Re: 1 Clement & the Gospel of Matthew?

Post by John2 »

davidmartin wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:50 pm I suspect the enmity between Paul and the Ebionites ('Judaisers') resulted in a partial reproachment at some point several decades later (80's?), a kind of merger. The Ebionites had a proto-Matthew style gospel that got reworked into Matthew we know.

Given that Epiphanius says the Ebionites emerged sometime after 70 CE from the earlier Nazarene faction of Jewish Christianity (which was okay with Paul), I doubt there was "a kind of merger" between them and Paul in the 80's CE. And given that they are said to have been vegetarians and opposed to sacrifice, I doubt they had anything to do with the NT Matthew, which espouses sacrifice.


Mt. 5:17-19 and 23-24:

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Therefore if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.
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Secret Alias
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Re: 1 Clement & the Gospel of Matthew?

Post by Secret Alias »

Given that Epiphanius says ...
That's like saying "given that Trump says ..."
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
John2
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Re: 1 Clement & the Gospel of Matthew?

Post by John2 »

Secret Alias wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:59 pm
Given that Epiphanius says ...
That's like saying "given that Trump says ..."

He's what we have and he was acquainted with Jewish Christian writings and Jewish Christians of his time.


https://www.google.com/books/edition/Re ... 0929196526
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
Secret Alias
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Re: 1 Clement & the Gospel of Matthew?

Post by Secret Alias »

Yes he knows things. But like Trump he's dishonest. So of what value is his testimony really?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
davidmartin
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Re: 1 Clement & the Gospel of Matthew?

Post by davidmartin »

Given that Epiphanius says the Ebionites emerged sometime after 70 CE from the earlier Nazarene faction of Jewish Christianity (which was okay with Paul), I doubt there was "a kind of merger" between them and Paul in the 80's CE. And given that they are said to have been vegetarians and opposed to sacrifice, I doubt they had anything to do with the NT Matthew, which espouses sacrifice.
If the Ebionites emerged from a Nazarene faction then we're talking about the same thing, whether you call them 'Judaisers' or 'Ebionite' or 'Nazarene faction'. It's a posited more normative Judaic version of Christianity... that wasn't original IMO
I don't see them being 'ok with Paul' but rather having issues with him and tensions which turn up in various places, eg Galatians. But by the time of Acts they're best buddies, why? Because of the 'merger' or reproachment of the branches that occurred much later, not during their lives
Your point about sacrifice - true, Ebionites were anti-sacrifice but that seems to be more the temple sacrifices but either way in the 'merger' it required compromise. To merge the 'Judaiser' with the 'Pauline' had to accept a lot of parts from each other, hence Matthew reflects this
Not everyone accepted this, which is why the Ebionites proper appeared who would have nothing to do with this as the church fathers later reported
On the Pauline side you get many factions that wouldn't join the party too
I suspect even within the greater body of orthodoxy that emerged you still had 'wings' more favourable to one or the other
The merger also reflects in 1/2/3 John but of the Johannine community instead of the 'Judiaser'
davidmartin
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Re: 1 Clement & the Gospel of Matthew?

Post by davidmartin »

If you want a concrete example consider 'hell'
where does Paul ever mention it as a concept, or name it by any names Sheol, Gehenna, outer darkness, tartaros…
you might bring up Thessalonians which is the closest he gets but Paul is hardly shy of threatening people, hell should fit right into his scheme of reckoning but, silence. Why?
I'll tell you, because his opponents the 'Judaisers' were big hell fan boys. Which is easy to know from the Clementine literature, Apoc. Peter and Revelation which I think is from their side of the church
In Paul's schema God's wrath is faced here on earth and doesn't feature the hell concept as is easy to see from his writings
He and his opponents have different beliefs
The Gospel of John also doesn't feature any hell, as the Johannine community probably didn't know of it either
Neither does Mark except in one place borrowed from Matthew
Yet in orthodox Christianity traditionally has taught of hell as a key doctrine despite the inconsistency
This is the result of a merging process from late 1st century which included the Judaisers so it entered here
Matthew was the main gospel to emerge from this and is packed full of the majority of hell references, superseding the earlier Mark which lacked them
Those who did not go along with this merger were outcasts, like the Ebionites, the part of the Johannine community who wouldn't toe the line (1/2/3 John), and of course any Gnostic's who might have lurked around until the rise of a more organised structure with beliefs flowing from the top
It's so clear to see the various NT writings coming from different church branches, later put under one umbrella with the book of Acts trying to harmonise the history and make it seem like nothing of the sort occurred
Only by thinking of early church branches and splits can any sense be made of the writings we have and what original Christianity might have looked like
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: 1 Clement & the Gospel of Matthew?

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davidmartin wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:26 pm If you want a concrete example consider 'hell'
where does Paul ever mention it as a concept, or name it by any names Sheol, Gehenna, outer darkness, tartaros…
Romans 10.7 mentions the abyss as the abode of the dead.
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Jax
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Re: 1 Clement & the Gospel of Matthew?

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:34 pm
davidmartin wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:26 pm If you want a concrete example consider 'hell'
where does Paul ever mention it as a concept, or name it by any names Sheol, Gehenna, outer darkness, tartaros…
Romans 10.7 mentions the abyss as the abode of the dead.
Is Romans 9-11 actually Paul though?
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neilgodfrey
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Re: 1 Clement & the Gospel of Matthew?

Post by neilgodfrey »

Jax wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:24 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:34 pm
davidmartin wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:26 pm If you want a concrete example consider 'hell'
where does Paul ever mention it as a concept, or name it by any names Sheol, Gehenna, outer darkness, tartaros…
Romans 10.7 mentions the abyss as the abode of the dead.
Is Romans 9-11 actually Paul though?
Who disputes this section of Romans?
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: 1 Clement & the Gospel of Matthew?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Jax wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:24 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:34 pm
davidmartin wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:26 pm If you want a concrete example consider 'hell'
where does Paul ever mention it as a concept, or name it by any names Sheol, Gehenna, outer darkness, tartaros…
Romans 10.7 mentions the abyss as the abode of the dead.
Is Romans 9-11 actually Paul though?
May not be, which is why I said "Romans 10.7" instead of "Paul." I myself am undecided, and I have no idea what others on this forum think of the issue. :cheers:
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