Comments on Handwriting Analysis and the Mar Saba Letter

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RandyHelzerman
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Re: Comments on Handwriting Analysis and the Mar Saba Letter

Post by RandyHelzerman »

StephenGoranson wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2024 8:16 am I am not persuaded that nobody has been surprised by this book.
*chuckle* come on man. Nobody was surprised by this book qua an uncatalogued book. If it would be so surprising to find uncatalogued books at Mar Saba---why did Morton Smith even want to go there? Why would they even have given him permission to try, if it were presumed to be such a Quixotic quest?

Neither the librarian at Mar Saba, nor the librarian in Jerusalem expressed any surprise that an uncatalogued and heretofore unknown book might be found. AFAICT it wasn't until 1975 that the possibility was even mooted. Why was nobody surprised for almost 2 decades?

And Morton Smith himself found an (of all things uncatalogued!) catalog of the library from 1910, and noted that it didn't refer to the book. If Smith himself planted that book, why would he tell us about a catalog which didn't contain it? Because that's just what he would do if he didn't want us to think he forged it???

If he were such a master forger, why didn't he doctor the catalog to contain a very suggestive reference to the book and the letter? Surely, early 20th century handwriting would be quite a bit easier to fake. No doubt there were yet monks still at Mar Saba who learned to write around the turn of the century--there would be no problems getting exemplars--perhaps even accomplices!!!
I have tried to point out that history of writing is more in a paleographer's domain than in that of a modern era court witness.
Let's say, for sake of argument, that is true. In that case, it should be easy to find an example of some aspect of the handwriting which both Tselikas and the others commented on, and it should be clear that Tselikas argument is superior. Since I don't have access to any of those books, perhaps you could produce one for us?
Last edited by RandyHelzerman on Fri Apr 19, 2024 12:14 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Comments on Handwriting Analysis and the Mar Saba Letter

Post by Peter Kirby »

StephenGoranson wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2024 5:47 am Ironically, the book by Stephen C. Carlson, often vilified in this forum, though it remains largely pertinent, actually introduced views of "Julie C. Edison, a professional forensic document examiner." Admittedly with less than ideal photographs.
Scott G. Brown and Allan J. Pantuck bring up some absolutely fundamental points here:

https://rogerviklund.files.wordpress.co ... k-2010.pdf
Hershel Shanks’ announcement that Biblical Archaeology Review had arranged for an expert in Greek paleography and a Greek forensic document examiner to analyze the handwriting of the sole manuscript of Clement of Alexandria’s Letter to Theodore (Mar Saba 65) brought us back to a question that has received surprisingly little attention over the past five years: how capable was the handwriting analysis made by Stephen Carlson? Then a patent attorney, Carlson had no training or prior experience in questioned document examination yet applied its principles to argue that the handwriting of this manuscript was forged by its discoverer, Morton Smith. This autodidactic approach is frowned on by the American Board of Forensic Document Examiners (ABFDE), which asserts that competency in distinguishing between authentic and inauthentic documents is acquired, not from textbooks or correspondence courses, but from “a legitimate structured training program” and at least two years of mentoring in “a recognized forensic laboratory or with an examiner in private practice who has previously received proper training,” followed by comprehensive written, practical, and oral examinations that are based on a wide range of problems frequently encountered in document examination.

As J. F. McCarthy put it, “the judgments of those dabbling in the field are quite apt to be wrong.” Given the unlikelihood that Carlson attained the necessary competence without any training or experience, and the fact that he misapplied these same methods when he incorrectly identified some semiliterate scribbling in Mar Saba 22 not only as a forgery but also as a forgery in the same handwriting, it is surprising that his ability to detect forgery has gone unquestioned by so many readers of his book The Gospel Hoax. The most likely reason for this is Carlson’s appeals to a professional document examiner named Julie C. Edison, who advised him and wrote a letter assessing his methods.


The question of what images Edison used was therefore of primary interest. But we also wanted to learn the details of her expertise, the amount of time she devoted to the study of the handwriting, and her entire professional opinion regarding the authenticity of the manuscript. The information she provided us will leave both Carlson’s supporters and critics feeling deceived.

When first contacted, Edison responded, “Regretfully, I do not recall offering a professional opinion regarding Morton Smith’s Letter of Clement.” With further prompting, she recalled having spent a single afternoon in 2005 with Carlson looking, we presume, at the blackand-white halftone reproduction of the letter in Smith’s book: “We only looked at a book containing writings attributed to Clement; and possibly a sheet containing symbols of the 18th century Greek alphabet.” She recalled that “Mr. Carlson spent a great deal of time regarding who may have written Clement’s letter; he was considering writing a book.” She was quick to add, “However, please be advised, no professional evaluation of mine was put into writing. Mr. Carlson paid me for my consulting time, but we did not communicate after than [sic].” We discussed the possibility of retaining her as an expert to generate a written report, but after some consideration she rejected the offer, and without our requesting it she forwarded the full text of the letter that she had previously sent to Carlson with the explanation, “There is nothing further for me to add on this subject, as it is not my area of expertise beyond what is written in the report.”


Although my undergraduate degree is in history, my knowledge of ancient Greece, Rome, and early Christianity is basic at best. And I have a limited knowledge of the Greek alphabet. ...


All of this information is at odds with Carlson’s description of what he left out. Edison made two vital points here. She plainly indicated that she herself cannot read the manuscript, and she identified the absence of known standards for comparison as a fundamental problem with his approach to questioned document examination. We will offer our thoughts on these two matters later. Here we note that Carlson’s suppression of this portion of Edison’s letter under the rubric of unnecessary background misled all interested parties to believe that she was properly qualified to render an opinion on this text and unequivocally endorsed his work.


Edison is aware of her limitations and made the proper acknowledgement, both in her letter to Carlson and in her discussion with us. Whether she should have commented at all on this document is an individual judgment call. Her acknowledgement that she does not have the expertise to conduct her own investigation and render a professional opinion about this document and the fact that she met only briefly with Carlson raise the question, Is she really in a position to attest to the competence of Carlson’s analysis? Carlson implied that she can and did do this by stating that he hired her in order to find out whether his analysis was competent and by hiding her inability to work in Greek and her criticisms of his method. Edison herself, however, more realistically stated that Carlson “asked me . . . to help verify his methods for uncovering the truth.” In other words, she was writing about the validity of his methods, not certifying that he applied them competently, which is something she cannot do without acquiring the necessary expertise and conducting a study of her own using standards of authentic writing. What she does venture to certify is his “research into the questioned document field,” which she believes “has been exemplary.” She is impressed that he “carefully studied” Albert S. Osborn’s 1929 book of 1028 pages. How she is in a position to verify this is not explained.


The people who read Edison’s letter on the internet would have been far less impressed had they known that Carlson’s consultant is unable to read Greek, that she met with him for only a few hours, that they looked exclusively at halftone reproductions of Smith’s photographs, that she disavows having expressed an opinion on the manuscript’s authenticity, and that her positive comments were prefaced by the “most important” observation that the absence of “known standards” in Carlson’s analysis violates one of the “fundamentals” of forgery detection. Clearly he hoped that this letter would discourage concerns about the objectivity, validity, and competence of his handwriting analysis, but now that we know the omitted contents and the manner in which he suppressed them, he has ultimately made us more dubious about these things than ever.

It is not hard to imagine that a handwriting analysis by a properly qualified questioned document examiner would look very different from what we see in The Gospel Hoax.

StephenGoranson
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Re: Comments on Handwriting Analysis and the Mar Saba Letter

Post by StephenGoranson »

It remains fact that putative "Secret Mark" surprised.
And that the best paleographer should not be dismissed.

Aside, if I am allowed the following, for which I could provide details.
Many have heard the phrase, three kinds of lies, "lies, damned lies, and statistics."
That followed an earlier statement, attributed to judges, such as, more or less
There are three kinds of witnesses, liars, damned liars, and expert witnesses.

However you take that:
It remains fact that putative "Secret Mark" did surprise.
And that the best paleographer should not be dismissed.
andrewcriddle
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Re: Comments on Handwriting Analysis and the Mar Saba Letter

Post by andrewcriddle »

IMHO not enough weight is being given to some of the specific claims made by Tselikas. See particularly palaeographic-observations-2 where Tselikas lists the unusual pattern of pen movements used in writing the letter. IMVHO there is a general tendency in that the writer is not using cursive to write rapidly in the way that a typical user would. The writer is doing things to make the script look cursive although this actually slows things down.

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Re: Comments on Handwriting Analysis and the Mar Saba Letter

Post by AdamKvanta »

andrewcriddle wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 1:18 am IMHO not enough weight is being given to some of the specific claims made by Tselikas. See particularly palaeographic-observations-2 where Tselikas lists the unusual pattern of pen movements used in writing the letter.
Paananen and Viklund addressed this here:
What then of Tselikas’s list of nineteen examples of poor knowledge of Greek lifted from the script in Clement’s Letter to Theodore? These can be classified into examples of rare usage of the letterform in manuscripts, examples of cursive hand in which letterforms fall towards uniformity, examples of inconsistency in letterforms, examples of pen lifts in odd places, and two special cases regarding the use of nomina sacra and the use of colons at the end of the line. The majority of the examples, however, do not have much to do with “poor knowledge of Greek writing.” We cannot see how existing (albeit rare) or simplified letterforms would disclose the amount of knowledge of Greek writing a given scribe possesses. There is no problem in the attestation of eighteenth-century letterforms in Clement’s Letter to Theodore, and as no one denies that the Clementine letter is written (superficially, at least) by a cursive hand, the simplified letterforms are certainly expected. If these and other signs of cursive hand were missing, we would not call the handwriting cursive. Furthermore, in forensic document examination it is generally held that “abbreviated, distorted and illegible forms, which are sufficiently free and rapid, often actually indicate genuineness rather than forgery even though they are very unusual and not exactly like those in the standard writing.”

...

Occasional oddities in letter formation are, rather, a sign of genuineness, and given the thousands of letters in Clement’s Letter to Theodore, it would be most suspicious if no occasional inexplicable oddities were to be found. As previously mentioned, the tendency in forgery is toward legibility and exact reproduction of the shape of the letterforms used as exemplars, to the detriment of line quality and other assorted characteristics of the handwriting. If anything, this tendency leads to an artificial uniformity in the writing, whereas natural handwriting contains deviations from the norm.

https://tuhat.helsinki.fi/ws/files/1252 ... _check.pdf (p. 32-34)

Last edited by AdamKvanta on Sun Apr 21, 2024 6:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
StephenGoranson
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Re: Comments on Handwriting Analysis and the Mar Saba Letter

Post by StephenGoranson »

IMO
By now it's been shown that the Letter was not by Clement.
The Landau/G. Smith book failed to offer a plausible 4th-8th c. setting, because it is anomalous for then, as noted in my amazon review.
Landau/G. Smith did not even seriously consider a later creation.
Ariel Sabar has given (Atlantic, April) relevant biographical information for his turn against religion and academic disappointments.
His Harvard senior thesis shows interest in bitter humor of J. Swift (not to be confused with T. Swift).
"Manufactured in the United States" on his copy.
Peter Jeffrey has given examples of MS as unreliable narrator, such as page 10, forgetting he didn't go to vespers but saying he did.
Those he most respected--Scholem, Nock, Liberman--did not defend Secret Mark.
The 1973 book dedications.
Tselikas' expertise of an imitation of earlier text, an imitation that could have been any time until 1958.
MS was a visual artist: sketchbook of Mar Saba.
He was capable: motive, means, opportunity.
Prof. T. Gaster on MS as like a little boy who wished to write curse words all over the altar in church, and then get caught.
MS got early liturgy wrong.
If a monk wanted to record "Clement" why not do it instead in the Clement edition owned in Mar Saba?
Why go to Mar Saba for rare items, when they were moved to Jerusalem?
Why not check Jerusalem after?
Why hide this from monks, dribbling out the story later?
The Voss Amsterdam book--with ownership marks stripped away-- has no known mention of being at Mar Saba in any year from 1646 to 1958, whatsoever.
andrewcriddle
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Re: Comments on Handwriting Analysis and the Mar Saba Letter

Post by andrewcriddle »

AdamKvanta wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 4:56 am
andrewcriddle wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 1:18 am IMHO not enough weight is being given to some of the specific claims made by Tselikas. See particularly palaeographic-observations-2 where Tselikas lists the unusual pattern of pen movements used in writing the letter.
Paananen and Viklund addressed this here:
What then of Tselikas’s list of nineteen examples of poor knowledge of Greek lifted from the script in Clement’s Letter to Theodore? These can be classified into examples of rare usage of the letterform in manuscripts, examples of cursive hand in which letterforms fall towards uniformity, examples of inconsistency in letterforms, examples of pen lifts in odd places, and two special cases regarding the use of nomina sacra and the use of colons at the end of the line. The majority of the examples, however, do not have much to do with “poor knowledge of Greek writing.” We cannot see how existing (albeit rare) or simplified letterforms would disclose the amount of knowledge of Greek writing a given scribe possesses. There is no problem in the attestation of eighteenth-century letterforms in Clement’s Letter to Theodore, and as no one denies that the Clementine letter is written (superficially, at least) by a cursive hand, the simplified letterforms are certainly expected. If these and other signs of cursive hand were missing, we would not call the handwriting cursive. Furthermore, in forensic document examination it is generally held that “abbreviated, distorted and illegible forms, which are sufficiently free and rapid, often actually indicate genuineness rather than forgery even though they are very unusual and not exactly like those in the standard writing.”

...

Occasional oddities in letter formation are, rather, a sign of genuineness, and given the thousands of letters in Clement’s Letter to Theodore, it would be most suspicious if no occasional inexplicable oddities were to be found. As previously mentioned, the tendency in forgery is toward legibility and exact reproduction of the shape of the letterforms used as exemplars, to the detriment of line quality and other assorted characteristics of the handwriting. If anything, this tendency leads to an artificial uniformity in the writing, whereas natural handwriting contains deviations from the norm.

https://tuhat.helsinki.fi/ws/files/1252 ... _check.pdf (p. 32-34)

I must emphasize that I am not an expert in Greek paleography, but IMHO the response above may miss my point. Cursive script uses joined up writing to write quickly and legibly. IIUC Tselikas indicates that some of the writing is joined in a way that looks cursive but would actually make the writing slower not faster.

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Re: Comments on Handwriting Analysis and the Mar Saba Letter

Post by AdamKvanta »

andrewcriddle wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2024 8:03 am I must emphasize that I am not an expert in Greek paleography, but IMHO the response above may miss my point. Cursive script uses joined up writing to write quickly and legibly. IIUC Tselikas indicates that some of the writing is joined in a way that looks cursive but would actually make the writing slower not faster.
I'm not an expert either, I just recommend the previously mentioned article of Paananen and Viklund which deals with Tselikas's arguments. And regarding the joined cursive matter, in that article, there is an example of a cursive letter delta from the personal letter of Dapontes that was written quite atypically in two strokes instead of one:

As an illustration, consider the image of a letter delta below, which is taken from the personal letter of Dapontes, written in the eighteenth century (from one of the manuscripts we studied for numbers of fresh starts). This letter is written quite atypically in two strokes, but this quirk tells us nothing about Dapontes’s knowledge of Greek. Furthermore, since students of Ancient Greek are usually taught the proper way to write the letter delta, it is much easier to imagine a fluent native Greek writer feeling free to vary his execution of the letter, than it is to imagine a forger skilled enough to produce Clement’s letter to Theodore with such accuracy writing such a simple letter in a non-standard way.
Image

https://tuhat.helsinki.fi/ws/files/1252 ... _check.pdf (p. 34)

So the question is, why Dapontes used two strokes instead of one? Isn't one stroke faster?
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Re: Comments on Handwriting Analysis and the Mar Saba Letter

Post by andrewcriddle »

IIUC we are not only dealing with isolated unusual letter formations scattered through the letter. There seem to be consistent usages.

For example the omicron upsilon with circumflex word ending occurs around 30 times in the letter. It looks to be normal cursive at first glance but it seems to be consistently formed with an unusual pattern of pen movements.

Andrew Criddle
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Re: Comments on Handwriting Analysis and the Mar Saba Letter

Post by AdamKvanta »

andrewcriddle wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2024 1:26 pm IIUC we are not only dealing with isolated unusual letter formations scattered through the letter. There seem to be consistent usages.

For example the omicron upsilon with circumflex word ending occurs around 30 times in the letter. It looks to be normal cursive at first glance but it seems to be consistently formed with an unusual pattern of pen movements.

Andrew Criddle
Interesting. Paananen and Viklund wrote that there are 56 circumflexed upsilons. 37 of those are written in a continuous stroke, 13 are written with the circumflex as a tilde, and 6 special cases. So my question is, which of these are consistently formed with an unusual pattern of pen movements?

In the 43 cases of the letter upsilon connected with the circumflex accent, we can find only a few examples in which the line with some probability could be described as non-continuous, and these exceptions are quite explainable. They are all coherent with the way this scribe wrote certain letters or letter-combinations.144

144 There are a total of 56 circumflexed upsilons (ῦ) in the manuscript. Thirty-seven of those are in the word τοῦ, and there the tau is always written alone, the omicron and the upsilon are written as ligature and are as far as we can tell connected with the circumflex accent in a continuous stroke in every case. Of the remaining 19 circumflexed upsilons, 13 are written with the circumflex as a tilde (this includes all 7 instances of Ἰησοῦ…). The remaining 6 times the circumflex is seemingly done as a continuation of the upsilon or omicron-upsilon ligature and then sometimes apparently done separately. But this is all explainable. ...

https://tuhat.helsinki.fi/ws/files/1252 ... _check.pdf (p. 37)

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