It can be translated as "then" in the sense of "the next thing". "After" might imply a gap that the Greek word does not necessarily imply.Michael BG wrote:When you say “does not have to mean” are you saying it can be translated as "then" in the sense of "after"?
In many cases it is not completely clear whether we should translate it as "at that time" or "then" in the sense of "next". In this particular case the signs may very well still be going on when the Lord arrives, right? I do not think the signs are envisioned as pausing for a bit, and then after a little while he shows up.“And there will be signs … men fainting etc. at that which is coming … And “at that time” they will see the Son of Man”. This would mean that the Son of Man will come at the same time as the signs are seen.
That is not the phrase that implies a previous tradition. The word that does that is "men" in the preceding verse. The phrase "so also you" is simply the one that points up the awkwardness of having "you" in the previous verse instead of "men".Ben C. Smith wrote:Why would I want to discuss “οὕτως καὶ ὑμεῖς”, which is in Mark and Luke? It is not a Marcion variation and cannot be used as evidence of older tradition.
How does a “might” prove either way what was in Proto-Luke-Marcion? And even if I provide evidence that Luke’s resurrection stories fit with his birth narratives how would that disprove a Proto-Luke-Marcion?
Exactly so.We can only discuss what we have.
No. A line was missing from that copy of Tertullian. I found the missing piece on Google Books (since all the regular HTML internet texts are apparently of the same defective copy of Tertullian) and edited it into the post. I am glad you pointed it out.I think the next difference is Lk 5:24 (RSV)
‘But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" -- he said to the man who was paralyzed -- "I say to you, rise, take up your bed and go home."’
For Marcion you have:
“But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins(,) arise, and take up your mat.”
“κλινιδιον” the word Luke has, could be translated as “little couch”. Mark has “κραβαττον”, which is normally translated as pallet. Strongs says “probably of foreign origin”. Matthew has “κλινην”, which means “couch”. Tertullian seems to have “Exsurge, et tolle dicturi erant,” (Rise, and take up he said to be) – “He said, Rise and take up to live”. So where is the couch or bed or mat? Is it assumed?
Tertullian has: Exsurge, et tolle grabattum tuum. Grabattum is a simple transliteration of κραβαττον, so it certainly looks like Marcion agrees with Mark here, not with Matthew or Luke.
You were correct.I expected that Tertullian was using a word that came from Mark’s pallet. Matthew uses “κλινην” in Mt 9:2 as does Luke in 5:18.
Ben.