Markan Marcion: A Contrarian Synopsis

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Re: Markan Marcion: A Contrarian Synopsis

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Peter Kirby wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 2:08 pm I will continue in another post to talk a little about what continues in this dialogue and about post-Marcion traditions of authorship by Paul. I will also revisit Origen.
In the meanwhile, to be more clear, let me distinguish that the later statement was an inference from the first one.

This was my first statement (adding back in section 80 and underlining "the beginning of the gospel"):
Peter Kirby wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 10:28 pm
Secret Alias wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 4:25 pm That's a Marcionite argument Origen is making.
Origen must know both Paul's "my gospel" and Mark's "gospel of Christ Jesus" as Marcionite arguments. And this has to be another attestation that Mark has something to do with "the Gospel" accepted by Marcion.

Origen, Commentary on John 1.79-82
(79) In addition to what has been said, we must know this too about the gospel. First of all, it is the gospel of Christ Jesus, the head of the whole body of the saved, as Mark says: "The beginning of the gospel of Christ Jesus." But further, it is also the gospel of the apostles, on account of which Paul says, "According to my gospel."
(80) But the beginning of the gospel (for its greatness consists of a beginning, a sequence, a middle, and end) is either all the Old Testament, John being its type, or, because of the connection of the New with the Old, the final events of the Old Testament which were presented through John.
(81) For the same Mark says, "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ. As it is written in Isaias the prophet, Behold I send my angel before your face, who shall prepare your way. A voice of one crying in the desert, Prepare the way of the Lord, make his paths straight."
(82) This passage causes me to wonder how the heterodox attribute the two testaments to two gods, when they are refuted no less even by this word. For how could John, the man of the demiurge, and ignorant of the new deity, as they suppose, be the beginning of the gospel, as they themselves think, when he belongs to a different God?

So both Origen and the Philosophoumena score points on Marcionites by saying how even "Mark" doesn't support them.
This later statement is an inference about a Marcionite idea behind it:
Peter Kirby wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 9:39 am (3) There is no named author, but Mark wrote it.
The first statement is easier to defend because it doesn't say as much. The later statement may still be a probable inference.

I suppose some of that is clear as mud right now. What's least clear to me is what exactly is being implied (not by Origen, who is quoting Mark, but by the relevant Marcionites) about the title or about 'the beginning of the Gospel'. So I will write another post.
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Re: Markan Marcion: A Contrarian Synopsis

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If I can be allowed another short, disjointed post.

Epiphanius quotes this from Evangelion: “The Law and the prophets were until John, and every man presseth into it.” His use of the statement is relatively unimaginative.

Scholion 43. “The Law and the prophets were until John, and every man presseth into it.”
Elenchus 43. If he prescribes a Law and names prophets, and does not declare the Law lawlessness or accuse the prophets of being false prophets, it is plainly acknowledged that the Savior has testified to the prophets; and it is proved that they prophesied of him.

Origen's employment of a reference to John after "the beginning of the Gospel" is more creative. Of course, that can be seen only after the section 80 that I omitted from the quote is restored:

(80) But the beginning of the gospel (for its greatness consists of a beginning, a sequence, a middle, and end) is either all the Old Testament, John being its type, or, because of the connection of the New with the Old, the final events of the Old Testament which were presented through John.

From the fact that John is mentioned at all in "the Gospel," after its "beginning," and from the way that the Marcionites talk about "John, the man of the demiurge, and ignorant of the new deity" (part of the law and the prophets, i.e. the Old Testament) the question is: if the gospel had already begun, why is John in it? The Marcionites are convicted of an inconsistency because "the final events of the Old Testament" (supposedly even on their understanding) are presented after "the beginning of the gospel."

All of this is without explication of the curious features of the passage in relation to the use of Mark. Just worth mentioning.
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Re: Markan Marcion: A Contrarian Synopsis

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I won't be able to pick this up again until tomorrow. I am learning things here that I didn't pick up on at first. I also read most of the first book of Origen's commentary here, which is helpful. I'd like to read more.

Thanks, Ken, for challenging me to think more on this! And to explain my thoughts more clearly.

Which I will do!

Previously in this thread and relevant:
Peter Kirby wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:19 pm So what could have been the text, then?

"The law and the prophets were until John, and everyone is being forced into it. Since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached."
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Re: Markan Marcion: A Contrarian Synopsis

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I'm revisiting this, now a week later, after looking more widely both at Origen's writings and the context of the Commentary on John. I would like to put this reading to use by providing some comments that can help contextualize the passage we've been talking about.

In the interim, I have read this from Panayiotis Tzamalikos (Origen: New Fragments from the Commentary on Matthew, on p. xxxiv and in endnote viii): "Origen ... averred that John the Baptist ‘is the beginning of the Gospel and the last of prophets’. He did so in the commentary on John, and it now turns out that he wrote this also in this preamble to his commentary on Matthew." For Tzamalikos, this is part of a larger case that Codex Holy Cross 104 goes back to Origen's Commentary on Matthew, which he incorporates into the attestation for the commentary.

Codex Holy Cross (Τιμίου Σταυροῦ) 104, Jerusalem Translation
16v ( ̓Ωριγένους) Πρῶτος δὲ τῶν λοιπῶν εὐαγγελιστῶν γεγράφηκεν ὁ θεῖος οὗτος ἀνὴρ τὸ παρ‹ὸν›4 | 17r εὐαγγέλιον ἑβραΐδι φωνῇvi τοῖς ἐκ περιτομῆς‹,› καὶ γράμμασιν ἑβραϊκοῖς συντεταγμένον. Δεύτερον δὲ τὸ κατὰ Μᾶρκον ὡς Πέτρος ὑφηγήσατο αὐτῷ, ὃν καὶ υ‹ἱὸ›ν5 ἐν τῇ καθολικῇ προσαγορεύει ἐπιστολῇ.6 Τρίτον δὲ τὸ κατὰ Λουκᾶν τὸ ὑπὸ Παύλ‹ου›7 ἐπαινούμενον εὐαγγέλιον τοῖς ἀπὸ τῶν ἐθνῶν.8 Καὶ ἐπὶ πᾶσι τὸ9 [κατὰ] ̓Ιωάννην. 16v (Origen) But first among the other evangelists, this divine man wrote the present Gospel in Hebrew for those of the circumcision, and it is composed with Hebrew letters. Secondly, there is the Gospel according to Mark, as Peter narrated to him, whom he also designates as his son in the catholic epistle. Thirdly, there is the Gospel according to Luke, praised by Paul, directed to those from the nations. And above all is the Gospel according to John.
Εἰ δὲ γέγραπται ταῦτα πν‹εύματ›ι,12 εἴποιμι δ ̓ ἂν ὅτι καὶ λόγον τινὰ ἔχει ἡ τῶν εὐαγγελίων τάξις. Καὶ ὅρα εἰ δυνάμεθα λέγειν ὅτι πρῶτος εἰκότως ἔγραψεν ὁ εἰς γέ- νεσιν ἀνθρωπίνην καταβιβάζων αὐτ‹ὸ›ν13 τῷ λόγῳ, καὶ γενεαλογῶν αὐτὸν ἀπὸ τοῦ ̓Αβραὰμ ἕως Δα‹υί›δ,14 καὶ ἀπὸ τοῦ Δα‹υὶ›δ15 ἕως τῆς μετοικεσίας Βαβυλῶνος, καὶ ἀπὸ τῆς μετοικεσίας Βαβυλῶνο‹ς›16 ἕως αὐτοῦ τοῦ Χ‹ριστοῦ›.17 Διὸ καὶ τὰ πλεῖστα ἀνθρώπινα ὁ Ματθαῖος διηγήσατο καὶ μετὰ τοῦτον Μᾶρκος, φάσκων | 17v ἀρχὴν εἶναι τοῦ εὐαγγελίου18 ̓Ιωάννην19 τὸν20 τελευταῖον τῶν προφητῶν.viii Καὶ τρίτο‹ς›21 ὁ Λουκᾶς ὁμολογεῖ μεθ ̓ ἑτέρους ἐπιβεβληκέναι τὸ γράφειν εὐαγγέλιον, λέγων. ̓Επειδήπερ πολλοὶ ἐπεχείρησαν ἀνατάξασθαι διήγησιν περὶ τῶν πεπληροφορημένων ἐν ἡμῖν πραγμάτων,22 ἀλλ ̓ ἔοικε μὴ ἐγκεῖσθαι τὰ τῶν πολλῶν. If these things are written by the Spirit, I would also say that the arrangement of the Gospels has some significance. And consider if we can say that it is fittingly written that the one who descends into human generation, tracing him from Abraham to David, and from David to the Babylonian exile, and from the Babylonian exile to himself, Christ. Therefore, Matthew related mostly human things, and after him, Mark, stating that John is the beginning of the Gospel, the last of the prophets. And thirdly, Luke confesses along with others to have taken up the task of writing the Gospel, saying, 'Since many have attempted to set forth an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, but it seems that the majority are not well-arranged.'"

For me, this gives support to the fact that Origen had integrated this idea into his own thought. It is probable that Origen had written on the topic at least briefly - i.e. referring to "Mark, stating that John is the beginning of the Gospel, the last of the prophets" - also in the Commentary on Matthew.

I have some thoughts on what Origen is doing in the first book in the Commentary on John in relation to the heterodox and the meaning of "the gospel," but I want to avoid giving the impression that this is completely essential to what I am saying here, so I will summarize before returning to the primary discussion. Let's bracket this as follows.

Origen's key point in the first 90 sections or so of his commentary is the meaning of "the gospel," and he is engaged with certain heterodox interpretations long before the points at which he mentions them more explicitly. Origen's counter-argument to the heterodox on this point follows an outline that accepts and expands. Origen mentions those who would distinguish the apostolic writings from the "gospel" (1.15), so the obvious common ground is the plainest meaning of the term "gospel" in reference to a text. After providing his definitions, Origen acknowledges the key reference "according to my gospel" in Paul (1.25), and Origen uses this reference in a transformative way to support his own views:

For among Paul's writings we do not have a book called a "gospel" in the usual sense, but everything which he preached and said was the gospel. And the things which he preached and said he also wrote. What he wrote, therefore, was "gospel."

If someone thought "my gospel" was written by Paul or by an amenuensis of Paul named Mark? Then they wouldn't agree here.

Origen extends the argument on the meaning of "gospel" further to encompass all the writings of the New Testament (1.26):

But if the writings of Paul were gospel, it is consistent with that to say that Peter's writings also were gospel and, in general, those which present the sojourn of Christ and prepare for his coming and produce it in the souls of those who are willing to receive the Word of God who stands at the door and knocks and wishes to enter their souls.

Origen proceeds to extend the "gospel" in some way to the law and the prophets also, among other things. The gospel is about something awaited (1.29). The savior has made all things gospel as it were (1.33), so the law and the prophets are now gospel even if they're not entitled gospels (1.32). So the Old Testament is now gospel in a special sense (1.36). Christ revealed himself spiritually to Moses and the prophets (1.37), but the rest had only a shadow of the good things to come (1.39).

Definitions of the "gospel" and the "spiritual gospel" are given. There's a digression on "good things" that generally doesn't prove itself in any clear way to be interacting directly with Marcionite thought, although the reference to the "good Father" with an important proof text of identity with the creator (1.65), as well as the anointing of Jesus (1.66) and the fulfillment of scripture (1.66), quite plausibly provide some details of such interaction. For comparison, Origen's Homilies on the Psalms refer several times to the "good God" when implicitly refuting the heterodox. When this digression ends (1.74), angels are brought in too (1.75-78). Here we get the passage of interest (1.79-82) that will be discussed more, then angels (1.83-84), before more arguments along the same lines as the passage of interest. Acts is quoted where Philip "preached the Lord Jesus to him, beginning from the Scripture of Isaiah" (1.85). The definition of the preaching of "good things" is used to argue "all of these are in some way part of the gospel" (1.86).

Origen concludes that "it is possible to gather comparable things from the Scriptures and see what the glory of the good things in Jesus Christ is from the gospel" (1.88), which not only encapsulates his understanding of the "gospel" but also helps to justify his hermeneutic approach, which will range over more material than just the Gospel of John itself in his commentary.

As my digression indicates, Origen had multiple purposes for his treatment of the subject of the meaning of the "gospel," so it's not as though interacting with the heterodox at certain points was his only intent. Yet Origen does interact with them explicitly at some points, and to some extent Origen prepared the structure of his arguments (outside of these explicit references) in a way that would justify his own understanding of the term "gospel" over and against those with a more narrowly circumscribed understanding of the term. Those who would disagree with Origen in the most fundamental way would be the heterodox because their differences were not merely semantic - i.e., whether we should call one thing the apostolic writings and another thing the gospel, maybe yet another thing Old Testament scripture - but also involved a quite different understanding of the law and the prophets. Origen's definitions ultimately serve to allow him to bring the Old Testament scripture "in some way" under the umbrella of the gospel.

Origen provides two definitions of "the beginning of the gospel" here (1.80):

But the beginning of the gospel (for its greatness consists of a beginning, a sequence, a middle, and end) is either all the Old Testament, John being its type, or, because of the connection of the New with the Old, the final events of the Old Testament which were presented through John.

Later he provides only one definition of "the beginning of the gospel" (1.85):

Since, then, according to one interpretation, we presented all the Old Testament, which is indicated by John's name, to be "the beginning of the gospel," we shall juxtapose from Acts what is said of the royal Ethiopian eunuch and Philip, so that this interpretation will not be without a witness. For "Philip," Scripture says, "preached the Lord Jesus to him, beginning from the Scripture of Isaias which reads, 'He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb without voice before his shearer."' Now how does he preach Jesus, beginning from the prophet, unless Isaias was some part of the beginning of the gospel?

This refers back to the first of the two offered earlier:

But the beginning of the gospel (for its greatness consists of a beginning, a sequence, a middle, and end) is either all the Old Testament, John being its type (1.80) according to one interpretation, we presented all the Old Testament, which is indicated by John's name, to be "the beginning of the gospel" (1.85)

The other interpretation of "the beginning of the gospel" that Origen offers is this:

because of the connection of the New with the Old, the final events of the Old Testament which were presented through John

Before saying more, we should bring into view another passage (Commentary on Matthew 10.21):

In reference to these things, it seems to me, that as the law and the prophets were until John, [Luke 16:16] after whom the grace of prophecy ceased from among the Jews; so the authority of those who had rule among the people, which included the power to kill those whom they thought worthy of death, existed until John; and when the last of the prophets was unlawfully killed by Herod, the king of the Jews was deprived of the power of putting to death; for, if Herod had not been deprived of it, Pilate would not have condemned Jesus to death; but for this Herod would have sufficed along with the council of the chief priests and elders of the people, met for the purpose. And then I think was fulfilled that which was spoken as follows by Jacob to Judah: "A ruler shall not depart from Judah, nor a leader from Israel, until that come which is laid up in store, and he is the expectation of the Gentiles." [Genesis 49:10]

These four passages, then, are based on the same essential idea (with variations):

Commentary on Matthew (preface) Commentary on Matthew (10.21) Commentary on John (1.80) Commentary on John (1.82)
... Mark, stating that John is the beginning of the Gospel, the last of the prophets ... ... the law and the prophets were until John, after whom the grace of prophecy ceased from among the Jews ... the last of the prophets was unlawfully killed by Herod ... ... the beginning of the gospel ... is ... because of the connection of the New with the Old, the final events of the Old Testament which were presented through John. ... John, the man of the demiurge, and ignorant of the new deity, as they suppose, be the beginning of the gospel, as they themselves think ...

Now we can bring the passage back into view to consider again:

(79) In addition to what has been said, we must know this too about the gospel. First of all, it is the gospel of Christ Jesus, the head of the whole body of the saved, as Mark says: "The beginning of the gospel of Christ Jesus." But further, it is also the gospel of the apostles, on account of which Paul says, "According to my gospel."
(80) But the beginning of the gospel (for its greatness consists of a beginning, a sequence, a middle, and end) is either all the Old Testament, John being its type, or, because of the connection of the New with the Old, the final events of the Old Testament which were presented through John.
(81) For the same Mark says, "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ. As it is written in Isaias the prophet, Behold I send my angel before your face, who shall prepare your way. A voice of one crying in the desert, Prepare the way of the Lord, make his paths straight."
(82) This passage causes me to wonder how the heterodox attribute the two testaments to two gods, when they are refuted no less even by this word. For how could John, the man of the demiurge, and ignorant of the new deity, as they suppose, be the beginning of the gospel, as they themselves think, when he belongs to a different God?

In 1.79-80, we receive in summary form a restatement of the structure of Origen's argument here: the "gospel" is not just the gospel of Christ Jesus (corresponding to the gospel text or texts), nor is it just also the gospel of Paul and the apostles (corresponding to the apostolic writing or writings), but we must also acknowledge that the "beginning of the gospel" is John, who represents either the Old Testament as a type (in agreement with Origen's broader strategy of defining the gospel) or the final events of the Old Testament (in agreement with Origen's tactics here specifically when bringing up this specific point).

The part with "the man of the demiurge, and ignorant of the new deity, as they suppose" helps to secure the identification of the "heterodox" who "attribute the two testaments to two gods" here more specifically as the Marcionites, given its parallels in other anti-Marcionite discourse. Of great interest is what is meant by this: "For how could John ... be the beginning of the gospel, as they themselves think?" After aligning the four passages from Origen above on this subject, the reference should be understood as deriving ultimately from this Gospel text (Commentary on Matthew 10.21):

the law and the prophets were until John [cf. Luke 16:16]

In Commentary on Matthew 10.21, Origen interprets this in such a way as to make John part of an ending, which gives way to a new beginning. In the preface to the Commentary on Matthew and also in Commentary on Matthew 10.21, John is called the "last of the prophets." In Luke 16:16, it is also written:

Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached

This provides at least a partial understanding of the Marcionite idea here. The beginning of the "gospel" is its preaching, post-John. The reference "since that time" here gives a justification to allow Marcionites to be described as identifying a point in time as "the beginning of the gospel."

That doesn't mean that Origen's description is strictly neutral, since his purpose here is to refute the Marcionites. To execute on this purpose, Origen employs the same interpretation of Mark 1:1-3 that he outlined also in the preface to the Commentary on Matthew:

Mark, stating that John is the beginning of the Gospel, the last of the prophets

Which is Origen's way of referring to what he quotes here:

"The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ. As it is written in Isaias the prophet, Behold I send my angel before your face, who shall prepare your way. A voice of one crying in the desert, Prepare the way of the Lord, make his paths straight."

Taking the Marcionite idea, which is in some way related to what's written in Luke 16:16, Origen glosses the full implications of his own interpretation of "the beginning of the gospel" onto the Marcionites. Which is to say, yes, the Marcionites would have no problem describing John as being "the last of the prophets" in some sense. But, no, they wouldn't agree that "the beginning of the gospel" is defined, as it is in Mark 1:1-3, with John going before Jesus and preparing the way as it is written in Isaiah. Yet that is of course how Origen attempts to refute them.

Thus far, while I have no doubt that the way I've expressed it could be much improved, I think it relatively uncontroversial.

This question then naturally justifies some controversy here: given that Origen had his own reasons for thinking the "last of the prophets" was the meaning of Mark 1:1-3, couldn't we simply attribute quoting Mark here to Origen's own understanding of the New Testament, not in any way related to how the Marcionites understood their own instrument? After all, Origen's even quoted the wrong passage here for explicating the Marcionite understanding of the "beginning of the gospel."

To answer simply: yes, that's completely plausible.

Does anything also suggest the plausibility of an alternative here where Origen is associating "Mark" with the Marcionites? Only a little. Take the passage again, to see if there is anything left to talk about:

(79) In addition to what has been said, we must know this too about the gospel. First of all, it is the gospel of Christ Jesus, the head of the whole body of the saved, as Mark says: "The beginning of the gospel of Christ Jesus." But further, it is also the gospel of the apostles, on account of which Paul says, "According to my gospel."
(80) But the beginning of the gospel (for its greatness consists of a beginning, a sequence, a middle, and end) is either all the Old Testament, John being its type, or, because of the connection of the New with the Old, the final events of the Old Testament which were presented through John.
(81) For the same Mark says, "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ. As it is written in Isaias the prophet, Behold I send my angel before your face, who shall prepare your way. A voice of one crying in the desert, Prepare the way of the Lord, make his paths straight."
(82) This passage causes me to wonder how the heterodox attribute the two testaments to two gods, when they are refuted no less even by this word. For how could John, the man of the demiurge, and ignorant of the new deity, as they suppose, be the beginning of the gospel, as they themselves think, when he belongs to a different God?

Contrast with the reference to Acts later:

(85) Since, then, according to one interpretation, we presented all the Old Testament, which is indicated by John's name, to be "the beginning of the gospel," we shall juxtapose from Acts what is said of the royal Ethiopian eunuch and Philip, so that this interpretation will not be without a witness. For "Philip," Scripture says, "preached the Lord Jesus to him, beginning from the Scripture of Isaias which reads, 'He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb without voice before his shearer."' Now how does he preach Jesus, beginning from the prophet, unless Isaias was some part of the beginning of the gospel?

Acts is explicitly rejected by Origen's Marcionite contemporaries. Here Origen doesn't bother offering the other interpretation of the two, the one that tactically tied into the anti-Marcionite argument he was making based on Mark. This reference wouldn't have the same value in controversy with Marcionites as the earlier one might have.

So let's once again look at some of the features of Origen's passage:
  • Origen makes parallel references to what "Mark says" and what "Paul says."
  • Origen explicitly makes the corresponding parallel references to the gospel of Jesus and gospel of the apostles.
  • He gives the phrase from Paul, "According to my gospel," which is key to Marcionite thought on the subject (cf. 5.7-8).
  • He repeats that Paul's phrase includes the apostles, plural, as also in Commentary on John 1.26.
  • The gospel quote is given with "the same Mark says" (Φησὶ γὰρ ὁ αὐτὸς Μάρκος), a reference to Mark's identity as author.
  • Mark (not say Acts) is what makes Origen "wonder how the heterodox attribute the two testaments to two gods."
  • Quoting Mark means that "they are refuted no less even by this word" (ἔλαττον καὶ ἐκ τούτου τοῦ ῥητοῦ ἐλεγχόμενοι).
The parallel references to what "Mark says" and what "Paul says" is what first caught my eye here, making me think of this better-known reference:

"When, therefore, Marcion, or any of his dogs, shall bay against the Demiurge, bringing forward arguments from the comparison of good and evil, they should be told that neither the apostle Paul nor 'short-measure' Mark reported these things — for none of them is written in the gospel according to Mark."
Ἐπειδὰν οὖν Μαρκίων ἢ τῶν ἐκείνου κυνῶν τις ὑλακτῇ κατὰ τοῦ δημιουργοῦ [dēmiourgôu], τοὺς ἐκ τῆς ἀντιπαραθέσεως ἀγαθοῦ καὶ κακοῦ προφέρων λόγους, δεῖ αὐτοῖ(ς) λέγειν ὅτι τούτους οὔτε Παῦλος ὁ ἀπόστολος οὔτε Μάρκος ὁ κολοβοδάκτυλος ἀνήγγειλαν —τούτων γὰρ οὐδε<ὶς> ἐν τῷ <κατὰ> Μάρκον εὐαγγελίῳ γέγραπται

On the other hand, as previously stated, Mark 1:1-3 isn't what Marcionites would have meant by "the beginning of the gospel." What the Marcionites would have understood as the relevant gospel reference here has more in common with "the law and the prophets were until John," which isn't in the Gospel of Mark that Origen quotes. The fact that the quote isn't one acceptable to Marcionites raises the question of whether all the references to Mark here derive only from Origen's own understanding of what "the beginning of the gospel" means.

So while there is room for reasonable doubt, given that the evidence in Origen is circumstantial in nature, it also seems reasonable to think that Origen had in mind some kind of association between Mark, either the evangelist or the gospel, and the Marcionites. This is not just because Origen quotes Mark here, nor is it because Origen is explicit on what the association is, given that he isn't. But the idea of some kind of unspecified association (either of the evangelist Mark or of the gospel of Mark) arises from Origen's wording in his lead-up to the quotes of Mark and in his discussion of how this refutes the heterodox.

After that, all we are left with is inferences and/or speculation, and different people may make different inferences. Those inferences can be considered informed only when also including a wider context that goes beyond just what Origen says.
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Re: Markan Marcion: A Contrarian Synopsis

Post by Peter Kirby »

RandyHelzerman wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 3:56 pmSurely the default presumption is that a purported line-by-line commentary of Marcion's gospel actually is a line-by-line commentary of Marcion's gospel
RandyHelzerman wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 5:57 pm
Peter Kirby wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 4:24 pm I have previously discussed these presumptions and no.
I'm sorry, but, "no" to what?

Also, did you discuss these somewhere in this (wonderfully voluminous) thread? If so, I'll be reading for weeks before I find it :-) Or someplace else?
There is the OP itself:
Peter Kirby wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 12:08 am This organizing principle is for me not a truth claim but an open question. How far can this be pushed? What would it imply? What new configurations would result? What, quite simply, is the alternative?

Longtime lurkers of the forum already know some of the personalities here that have ventured their thoughts. On the one column, let us say in the Lukan column, we have for example Stuart and Mark, who have provided inspiration for this exercise by way of making me wonder: what if you're wrong?
Stuart wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 9:33 am Overall quibbles. But in the main I think you did a good job shooting down those who somehow claim the text is Mark or Matthew or something other than a form of what became Luke.
vocesanticae wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 11:51 am Do you know of any scholar in any publication who has challenged the position that T had direct access to the Marcionite scriptures? If so, I'd be eager to know about it. If not, then it seems that your position is baseless contrarianism.
We also have the ever mercurial Stephan, who would no doubt laugh at this tentative attempt to discover the possible details of an alternative theory as being as baseless as the unchallenged consensus itself.

I would agree that I am motivated by the same vanity that has produced this academic juggernaut. I also have no delusions that I will be anything other than run over if I simply try to oppose it. So we will have to be crafty in our approach. We must take a careful study, notice any weaknesses, look for patterns, and slowly weave an alternative theoretical rope. Only then can we bind the strong man and plunder his house (Mark 3:27).
There is no "default presumption" in this thread in favor of the idea that Against Marcion book 4 can be taken as actually being a line by line commentary on the actual text of Marcion's gospel.

Suppose I agreed with your post. Suppose I accepted its assumption that we can be epistemically justified in having a "default presumption" under certain conditions. Suppose I accepted its assumption that those conditions obtain here, that Against Marcion book 4 can then have a "default presumption" that Tertullian was reading from Marcion's gospel.

At that point, all that would mean for me is that I don't object that someone is being irrational if they want to go off and take it as a given that Tertullian was using Marcion's gospel to write Against Marcion book 4. If I agreed with your post, I would acknowledge that as rational.

But there would still be the question - "what if you're wrong?" - and the premise for my own investigation in this thread remains unchanged.
RandyHelzerman
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Re: Markan Marcion: A Contrarian Synopsis

Post by RandyHelzerman »

Peter Kirby wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2024 9:04 pm There is no "default presumption" in this thread in favor of the idea that Against Marcion book 4 can be taken as actually being a line by line commentary on the actual text of Marcion's gospel.
...
what if you are wrong?
Yeah this is on me, because its still a bit fuzzy to me the exact parameters of your endeavors here--much less was I challenging them :-)
Default presumptions are defeasible, and tapping on them with a ball-peen hammer to see how structurally sound they are is something which needs to be done more often. What if I'm wrong? One of the few advantages of being a layman is that the default presumption is you are wrong, so there's no shame in admitting when you are wrong :-) Or even in admitting that secret alias might have point!

Ben Smith's work is magisterial! It's just incredible to have that resource. And we didn't even have to buy a $400 book to read it. If we start from there and we:

1. Bracket the fact that it is presented as a subset of Luke,
2. Ignore the order of the reconstructed verses altogether, and
3. Start only with the very weak assumption that Tertullian, et. al., are by and large reporting correctly when they note a difference between the Evangelion and a gospel--any gospel--(if this isn't true, we'll never know anything about the Evangelion)

It seems like we would at least be able to conclude:

1. The Evangelion has a lot of overlap with Mark--about 80% overlap with Mark, more or less.

And therefore:

2. The Evangelion is a narrative gospel.

and prompted by #2, we once again look at order, we would find that

3. The reconstructed parallels with Mark can be placed roughly in the order of Mark

which would lead us to conclude that:

3. The Evangelion is a synoptic gospel -- which is to say the narrative follows Mark's narrative very closely, with Non-markan bits added

4. We can insert the non-Markan bits into the ordered reconstructed Markan parallels in such a way the narrative still makes sense.

5. and if we do so, it looks a lot like Luke. The Reader's Digest version of Luke.

Which is to say that:

6. It looks a lot like any other synoptic gospel.

I.e., if we took anything Tertullian or anybody else said about the Evangelion, put them all in a bag and shook them up, and dumped them on the table like puzzle pieces, when we put the pieces all back together, what we'd get would look a lot like....Ben Smith's reconstruction.

Now-----is this just an artifact of the fact that we **started** from Ben Smith's reconstruction? Viz, a reconstruction which was constructed from other reconstructions which presupposed that Tertullian had a copy of the Evangelion and of Luke in front of him, and was going verse-by-verse through them in order? Or that the only canonical gospels Tertullian knew about were synoptic gospels? Very good question.
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