Dating the Pentateuch

[spin]

Thanks for the long citation. Being new here I thought of posting the source but most discussion groups prefer URLs to material of that length.

One might also think anyone seriously interested would simply have googled hyksos+hebrew+josephus

In other words you still refuse to cite a serious source for your bile.

On and on you go covering your ass while making false claims and dropping pearls of unsourced wisdom. The only conclusion available at the moment, A_Nony_Mouse, is that you are FoS.

In other words, Kirby posted the source in its entirety. Can't you read?

Again, odd game but you have me confused with someone who gives a shit.

You give a shit. Then you swallow it and start over.

Back to your unsupported stupidity:

But just for you, the Yahu cult of Josephus would not be recognized as Judaism today. He clearly rejects the Torah.

I asked you to explain the logic for this claim three times now. Still waiting for you to make yourself an honest man.

You can lead a whore to culture but you can't make him read.

You are merely an anti-Semitic troll. I think you should be banned. You have no intention to support your pernicious claims. You came and dropped your load without seeking to understand the requirements of the forum—eleven posts in eleven threads on your first day here. Now you are fighting a rearguard action to cover up the fact that you are asserting things you don't have evidence for.

It's not that being banned is anything new for you. You seem to relish being banned.

LMGTFY

[A_Nony_Mouse]

A thing which needs be done in Pentateuch dating is decide whether or not it is to be treated like all other documents. For example we know of anachronisms in Paul. Believers only reject the anachronisms and keep the rest. In things like the temple offering tablet a single anachronism leads to rejecting the entire document. That is the way all secular documents are dealt with, one anachronism and the entire document goes into the trash. For dating the document the date of the anachronism is taken as the earliest possible creation date but not the date on which is was created.

Exodus mentions the Book of Life. Therefore the Pentateuch was written no earlier than the invention of books. That puts the earliest possible date as the 2nd c. BC.

[spin]

Exodus mentions the Book of Life. Therefore the Pentateuch was written no earlier than the invention of books. That puts the earliest possible date as the 2nd c. BC.

Does anyone know what this loon is talking about?

[A_Nony_Mouse]

It is interesting that the dating of Exodus by the use of the word for book is consistent with the dating of Daniel, the only canonical "record" of the mythical captivity in Babylon, is also dated to the 2nd c. BC even by believers.

[Bobq]

May I butt in to your conversation? This is my first post to this website, which is more to my liking than Yahoo Answers. I am a 74-year old amateur Biblical Historian, deeply interested in the Old Testament with more than 50 years of sometimes intense studying on the subject.
The rift between the Samaritans and the Jews, as I have always understood it, began with the liberation of the Judean Priesthood by Cyrus of Persia around 535 BC. Cyrus encouraged any of the Babylonian captives who so desired to return to Jerusalem, rebuild their Temple, and even rebuild the walls around it.
The returnees found to their horror that in the 60 years that had passed Jerusalem had lain in rubble, and that the area, including the ruins of the Temple, had become the laughing stock of passing caravans. In addition, Judea was occupied by Samaritans who were in the favor of the Persian Governor at Samaria.
My studies indicate to me that the Samaritans were the descendents of the 10 Tribes left behind when the Assyrian Armies destroyed the Kingdom of Israel in 721 BC, roughly 200 years in the past, and that they rightfully considered themselves Jews.
When a Samaritan offer to help in the rebuilding of the Jerusalem Temple was refused,
not just once, the Samaritans were righteously indignant. They returned to Samaria, built the Temple at Gerzim, then used their influence with the Persian Governor to delay construction at Jerusalem for more than 100 years.
The Samaritan / Jew rift has never healed.

[stephan happy huller]

But don't forget the Qumran material demonstrates that there were Jews who continued to venerate - or at least 'recognize' - the sanctity of Gerizim. The Sadducees probably had a faction which remembered Gerizim as their traditional sacred place, the mountain of God. The rift wasn't as big originally. Jerusalem was one of a number of 'false places' established since the age of favor ended with Eli. I am not sure that the Samaritans 'hated' the Jews as much as the Jews needed to get rid of the memory of Gerizim.

[Bobq]

Putting aside the issue of whether or not there was a Moses or a David, the Biblical evidence favors the Gerzim site over Jerusalem. Prior to the military victories that led to the "United Kingdom" the center of worship was always in the populous North. "Center of worship" can be defined as "Money", since all of the religious festivals produced a tremendous amount of revenue. Building the Temple at Jerusalem resulted in a shift of power among the Priestly Families that really is the root cause of the Samaritan / Jew difficulties.
I have found nothing concrete that changes my belief that the Pentateuch was first formed around 950 BC, during the reign of David. It was composed of the "J" document, which was the religious traditions followed by the Tribes of Judah and Benjamin as administered by the Priestly Families descended from Aaron--and the "E" document, the traditions of the other ten Tribes, administered by the Priestly Families descended from Aaron's brother, Moses. In several ways the "E" document was a rebuttal of the earlier "J" document. The Aaronite Priests had embraced a Liberalism not found in the North. During the 950 - 900 BC span, Solomon was King, the Temple was built and the United Kingdom was falling apart, undoubtedly because of the tension and competition among the Priestly Families. In spite of his reputation, Solomon was not wise enough to overcome what the Northern Priests saw as conflicts with Mosaic Law. Among the 300 wives and 300 concubines in Solomon's stable were many non-Jews. There is evidence that the Temple even contained an area for the worship of Ba'al. When Solomon died the ten Northern Tribes broke away, forming the Kingdom of Israel, say 900 BC. For the next 180 years or so the Priestly Families competed for the income from the religious festivals. In 721 BC the competition ended, when the Assyrians moved the Northern Priests away forever. Judaism became the religion of the Jews by default.

[semiopen2]

950 BCE is a ridiculous date for the writing of the Pentateuch. Richard_Elliot_Friedman made a similar suggestion in Who Wrote the Bible?

http://www.amazon.com/Wrote-Bible-Richa ... +the+bible

He also made the absurd argument that the Jahwist was a girl.

That was all over a quarter century ago and I didn't think anyone took that seriously anymore. There is doubt that Hebrew even existed as a language in the 10th century

For example -

Most ancient Hebrew biblical inscription deciphered http://phys.org/news182101034.html

The good news is that it's from the 10th century and professor Galil's interpretation is that the shard has Hebrew writing reminiscent of something in the bible. Khirbet_Qeiyafa, the bad news is that he is wrong.

http://www.rollstonepigraphy.com/?s=Khirbet+Qeiyafa is a more sober appraisal -

The Qeiyafa Ostracaon is an important inscription from the late stage of Early Alphabetic. Regarding its language, some have argued that it is written in Hebrew. This article, however, contends that there are no discernable diagnostic features in the ostracon that mandate such a conclusion. Furthermore, the article also emphasizes that the script of this inscription is certainly not Old Hebrew, nor is it the immediate precursor of the Old Hebrew script. Rather the Old Hebrew script derived from Phoenician. Thus, there is some distance between the script of this inscription and the Old Hebrew script. Finally, the article contends that it would be difficult (because of the dearth of
data) for grand proposals about statecraft and literacy to be made on the sole basis of this ostracon.

Galil, other than just offering a dubious translation, makes erroneous claims about what are Hebrew versus Canaanite words. The link refutes these claims.

The problem seems to be that if the Pentateuch was written by 950 BCE, what language was it written in? Not to mention, what was it written on?

Your comment about the Jahwist being earlier than the priest has merit. I recently also had this impression. However, I was surprised to learn that it is questionable.

The Old Testament: A Literary History b ... rad+schmid discusses the issues.

Joel S. Baden The Composition of the Pentateuch: Renewing the Documentary Hypothesis (The Anchor Yale Bible Reference Library) http://www.amazon.com/Composition-Penta ... esis+bible defends the documentary hypothesis against the European School, but I haven't noticed a claim that J is clearly earlier than P.

Consider the Tower of Babel - Genesis 11:1-9

Everyone on earth had the same language and the same words. 2 And as they migrated from the east, they came upon a valley in the land of Shinar and settled there. 3 They said to one another, "Come, let us make bricks and burn them hard." -- Brick served them as stone, and bitumen served them as mortar. -- 4 And they said, "Come, let us build us a city, and a tower with its top in the sky, to make a name for ourselves; else we shall be scattered all over the world." 5 The LORD came down to look at the city and tower that man had built, 6 and the LORD said, "If, as one people with one language for all, this is how they have begun to act, then nothing that they may propose to do will be out of their reach. 7 Let us, then, go down and confound their speech there, so that they shall not understand one another's speech." 8 Thus the LORD scattered them from there over the face of the whole earth; and they stopped building the city. 9 That is why it was called Babel, because there the LORD confounded the speech of the whole earth; and from there the LORD scattered them over the face of the whole earth. (Gen 11:1 TNK)

Babel, of course, is Babylon and this passage recalls Jeremiah 51. An interesting question is which one is written first... personally, I don't think one can intelligently place one almost 500 years before the other.

Of course, your claim that there was actually a United Kingdom is almost outrageous in this day and age. However your situating Solomon's wives and concubines in his stables makes up for some of the probable factual inaccuracies with humor.

[Bobq]

OK, I must admit that 90% of my research predates the Internet. Is my head buried in the sand? In my mind the Pentateuch is heavily edited by Ezra and he was writing around 400 BC. Is there a school of thought that the historical Books pre-date the Pentateuch?
As I understand the Samaritan position, all but the Pentateuch is biased, glorifying David and the Tribe of Judah. Is the Pentateuch a Samaritan product? Can you point me in the direction of a website that could enlighten me?

[Peter Kirby]

Hi Bobq,

Good questions. Welcome to the forum. I hope you find the answers that you seek.

cheers,
Peter Kirby