Babylon

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
semiopen
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Re: Babylon

Post by semiopen »

This thread somehow recalls Mr Macson's analysis of the Mishna, etc.

"Babylon" in the thread title is interesting. One seldom sees this word except in dubious Frum stuff for some reason; it's always Babylonia in more sane circles - just an odd subtlety that seemed worth mentioning.

IRAQ AND THE JEWISH PEOPLE: THE BABYLONIAN COMMUNITY - http://lawrenceschiffman.com/iraq-and-t ... community/
Although Hillel is knows as “the Babylonian,” it is difficult to prove that he was trained in Babylonia. It is possible that he came to Israel as a youth. However, the idea that a man trained in Babylonia was able to convince the rabbinic leaders of the time, the Bnei Batera—who were themselves from an area that bordered on Syria, beyond the Golan heights—of his interpretation of halachic matters such as Pesach and the sacrifice is quite difficult to accept.
Given all the bullshit about him, we have to wonder whether he even existed.

This thread did make me wonder how and why the Babylonian Talmud got it's name (it's about as Babylonian as Jeff Sessions), and I thought it was cool that some people with actual brains are asking similar questions.

The Iranian Talmud: Reading the Bavli in Its Sasanian Context
https://forward.com/culture/193874/putt ... he-talmud/
In “The Promise,” Chaim Potok’s 1969 sequel to “The Chosen,” Orthodox rabbinical student Reuven Malter wants to emend manuscripts and track the text’s historical development. His Orthodox teachers, irked both by new, non-traditional readings and by the humanization of sacred texts, smell heresy. Hasidic boys on the street call him the “goyishe Talmudist.”
Maybe a reader's digest of pseudo historical Rabbinical bullshit would be useful, but at the end of the day it's still bullshit.
John2
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Re: Babylon

Post by John2 »

I'm only in note taking mode and nowhere near to offering any analysis. I just found it curious how much of the OT and later Judaism pertains to Babylon. And while I've always been aware of it, I've never really thought about it much. And before I can think about it more I have to take a fresh look at what there is to think about, and thus far I'm thinking that the best place to start (if/when I do) is the OT and then Josephus, prior to "pseudo historical Rabbinical bullshit."
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
semiopen
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Re: Babylon

Post by semiopen »

John,

At the start of your OP you go -
I was just thinking about how much Babylonian Jews have contributed to Judaism. I suppose it starts with Abraham (at least according to tradition), but there is also Ezra and Hillel...
That's not some intrepid scholar embarking on a search for his imaginary roots, more like some poor shmuck pursuing a wild goose as Spock once said - http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... GooseChase
In the Star Trek: The Original Series episode "The Ultimate Computer", when Kirk, Spock and Scotty attempt to do a manual override to disconnect the M5 computer from the Enterprise, it emits a decoy beacon for them to follow, giving it enough time to draw energy from the Warp Engines. Upon discovering the failure to disconnect the M5, Spock refers to the trope as "Pursuing a Wild Goose".
Subsequently you look at Hashem knows what crap, and the probability of Hillel not being Babylonian apparently never comes up.

Just seems to me that you're looking for insight in the wrong places, and I tried to point out out possible more fruitful avenues.
Ethan
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Re: Babylon

Post by Ethan »

The distance between Jerusalem & Babylon is around 900 miles , the only people that went back and forth are the Merchants and where-ever Merchants trade, they usually leave behind small colonies or trading posts, these are the so-called communities you are referring too and should not be defined as 'Jewish' .

'Jew ' is a modern word referring to people that practice Judaism and shouldn't be used in an Ancient context , they weren't any 'religious' colonies or missionaries in the ancient world, Judea [Place name] Judeans [ people who lived in Judea] and these words have nothing to do with any particular religion.

Phoenician is a broader and a neutral term that compasses the Levant, thus 'Phoenician settlements in Babylon & Egypt' and the Phoenicians were very advance people, they didn't need to learn anything in Babylon, it was already in it's culture, like the Solar Lunar Calendar, used in Carthage, founded in the 9th Century BCE.

Very little of the OT pertains too Babylon, references too Babylon are also inaccurate, we have Daniel in the 2nd year of Nebuchadnezzar [603 BCE] and in the 3rd year of Cyrus [ 536 BCE] ( who apparently succeed Darius) , the Last king of the Chaldean dynasty was Nabonidus who reigned for 17 years, who is strangely absent in the OT, how can the Book of Daniel be a reliable prophecy and unreliable history at the same time.

בָּבֶל [BBL] is also a reasonable rendering of Βύβλος [Byblos] , a Phoenician city that traded Papyrus with Greeks and the Tower of Babel was also in the Levant, possibly identified with the Pyramid tower of Hermel.
https://vivliothikiagiasmatos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/joseph-yahuda-hebrew-is-greek.pdf
John2
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Re: Babylon

Post by John2 »

Just seems to me that you're looking for insight in the wrong places, and I tried to point out out possible more fruitful avenues.
I like to think of it as taking a fresh look at what is there, and the oldest things that are there are the OT and Josephus. I realize they may in their own ways be as "bullshit" as rabbinic sources but I'm curious, if nothing else, to see how it all developed, and I'm enjoying taking a slow and lazy 1 + 1 = 2, 1 + 2 = 3 approach to it and learning whatever I may learn and I appreciate the feedback.

Babylon itself (in the sense of Mesopotamia) has always seemed kind of foreign to me, geographically and culturally speaking, so I'm finding it interesting to picture what the setting may have been like for Ezekiel there, for example (and I use the term Babylon only because it is easier to type than alternatives like Babylonia and Mesopotamia). He seems like ground zero for Babylonian Jewish writings. I take his presence there with more interest than Hillel's. And I'll get to Hillel. His Babylonian origins could be made up, for all I care. I'll see what there is to see and make whatever I make of it when I get there.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
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Re: Babylon

Post by John2 »

Ethan wrote:
Very little of the OT pertains too Babylon, references too Babylon are also inaccurate, we have Daniel in the 2nd year of Nebuchadnezzar [603 BCE] and in the 3rd year of Cyrus [ 536 BCE] ( who apparently succeed Darius) , the Last king of the Chaldean dynasty was Nabonidus who reigned for 17 years, who is strangely absent in the OT, how can the Book of Daniel be a reliable prophecy and unreliable history at the same time.
I'm finding that there is more than I had appreciated before, at least. Take Ezekiel, for example. Of course I've always realized that he wrote or preached while in "exile" and I know where "Babylon" is on a map and that it has rivers and farms and cities and such, I just ... never really "pictured" any of it before, and I've also never thought about who exactly stayed behind in Babylon after the return from captivity and what their lives may have been like (for which it seems like Josephus would be a good source) and am looking forward to getting to that.

I'm also just curious about the interrelationship between Israel and Babylon from biblical times on. I guess as far as major Jewish centers outside of Israel go, I've felt more comfortable with Egypt (i.e., the West/Greco-Roman era) than Babylon (i.e., the East/Persian era) and I wouldn't mind making up for this deficit.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
Ethan
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Re: Babylon

Post by Ethan »

Persians enslaves everyone, Ionians, Greeks, Cypriots, Armenians, Indians , Syrians and where-ever they conquered they enslaved, so the belief that so-called "Jews' were enslaved by the Babylonian Empire and were liberated by the Persian Empire is historical fiction.
Herodotus 2:2
Cambyses was the son of this woman and of Cyrus. He considered the Ionians and Aeolians slaves inherited from his father, and prepared an expedition against Egypt, taking with him some of these Greek subjects besides others whom he ruled.

Herodotus 6:97
The Persians enslaved all of them that they caught, and burnt their temples and their city. After doing this, they set sail for the other islands.

Herodotus 6:95
Datis, a Mede by birth, and his own nephew Artaphrenes son of Artaphrenes; the order he gave them at their departure was to enslave Athens and Eretria and bring the slaves into his presence
Most of the Phoenicians were willing to side with Alexander the Great and liberate themselves from the Persian Empire, however TYRE, a Persian owned Phoenician port-city sided with the Persian Empire and they paid the price, Tyre was destroyed , however it's King and it's women & children were pardoned. However the Old Testament portrays the Persian as liberators and alludes too Alexander's victories as prophecy of destruction, i.e Fall of Tyre [Isaiah 14], so the OT is Pro Persian and Anti Hellenistic which confirms the Tyrians are the authors of the Hebrew Bible and thus cements my theory that Hezekiah or Ezekial is Azemilcus [ exiled King of Tyre] .
https://vivliothikiagiasmatos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/joseph-yahuda-hebrew-is-greek.pdf
John2
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Re: Babylon

Post by John2 »

This is interesting (and again I'm just making notes). Bodi suggests in The Book of Ezekiel and the Poem of Erra that Ezekiel may have been pro-Babylonian and influenced by a poem that laments the fall of Babylon:
... a particularly striking feature of the Book of Ezekiel is its pronounced pro-Babylonian stance. This is evident when compared with [Psalm 137] ... In the same time the author or redactors of the Book of Ezekiel affirm that the military conquests and imperialism of the Babylonians meet Yahweh's full approval! ... This remarkable statement [in Ezk. 30:25] makes Nebuchadrezzar the servant of Yahweh! As noted by G. Holscher, the Book of Ezekiel contains prophecies against Tyre and Egypt, the opponents of Babylon, but there is no word of threat against the Babylonians! ... In the oracles against foreign nations, seven nations come within the circle of denunciation except the Babylonians: Ammon (Ezek 25:1-7); Moab (25:8-11); Edom (25:12-14); the Philistines (25:15-17); Tyre (26-27); Sidon (28:20-23); Egypt (29-32). As pointed out by Cooke, "Babylon is not included in the list, but Babylon, though the chief aggressor, stood apart from the rest, as being the instrument of Yahweh's justice, ordained, in the prophet's eyes, to punish Israel.

https://books.google.com/books?id=-nqX8 ... on&f=false
This absence of an oracle against Babylon and Ezekiel's "pro-Babylonian stance in political matters" is also noted by Block here:

https://books.google.com/books?id=5b87C ... on&f=false

And Lyons writes in An Introduction to the Study of Ezekiel (pg. 11):
... the book of Ezekiel indicates that the exiles were not prisoners, but lived in their own community. Moreover, the book makes no reference to hostile actions by the Babylonians towards the community. After all, the purpose of deporting the elites of a vassal nation was not only to prevent further rebellion, but also to integrate them into the fabric of Babylonian society, thereby strengthening it. The letter to the exiles described in Jer 29.1-7 presumes that it was possible for the exiles to thrive in Babylon. And we do have data indicating that by the end of the exilic period, the Judeans enjoyed the same economic and legal rights as Babylonians ...

https://books.google.com/books?id=S7_yB ... on&f=false
Last edited by John2 on Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:32 pm, edited 4 times in total.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
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Re: Babylon

Post by John2 »

Jer. 29:4-7:
This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says to all those I carried into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon: “Build houses and settle down; plant gardens and eat what they produce. Marry and have sons and daughters; find wives for your sons and give your daughters in marriage, so that they too may have sons and daughters. Increase in number there; do not decrease. Also, seek the peace and prosperity of the city to which I have carried you into exile. Pray to the Lord for it, because if it prospers, you too will prosper.”
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
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Re: Babylon

Post by John2 »

Thompson writes in Ezekiel, Daniel:
The Babylonians appear to have primarily relocated the Judean exiles to seven villages along the Kebar River (a major canal) near Nippur and Babylon. Exactly where Ezekiel came to live in exile is not clear, though his commissioning as a sentry for Israel occurred near the colony of exiles in Tel-abib, one of the seven enclaves (3:15). From start nearly to finish, the Kebar River furnished a geographic point of reference for significant experiences of Ezekiel (from 1:1 to 43:3).

https://books.google.com/books?id=5b87C ... on&f=false
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
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