Was OT originally in Greek?

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
Ethan
Posts: 976
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:15 pm
Location: England
Contact:

Re: Was OT originally in Greek?

Post by Ethan »

semiopen wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:45 am

[wiki]The Hebrew word shamayim is constructed of two parts: sham (שָׁמַ) derived from Akkadian samu meaning "sky" or "lofty", and Hebrew mayim (מַיִם) meaning "water". In Genesis 1:6 Elohim separated the "water from the water". The area above the earth was filled by sky-water (sham-mayim) and the earth below was covered by sea-water (yam-mayim). The Hebrew word for the sun is shemesh. It follows the same construction, where "shem" or "sham" (Akkadian: samu) means "sky" and esh (Akkadian: ish) means "fire", i.e. "sky-fire".[/wiki]
YAM as a duel-meaning, Sea and West , the Septuagint however always reads this 'Thalassa , even if the context is referring too
the direction.

Exodus 10:19
And the LORD turned a mighty strong west[YAM] wind
Lord brought in the opposite direction a strong wind from the sea ( Septuagint)

Gen 49:13 - Zebulon shall dwell at the haven of the sea ( the west)
This is how he was named, from Gk ζέφυρον (Zephoron) ' West-Wind

YAM ( West) also extends into Yamiyn (West) ' Right-hand' , see Psalms 89:12 that incorrectly reads 'North and South', when
it aught to be North and West, the Septuagint reads Yamiyn as Yam ( West) , the Hebrew word Tsaphon , also as a Gk cognate χῶρον (Xapon) ' North-west' .

Psalms 89:12 north-west created them
- Created is בָּרָא[Gen 1:1] although the word means Filled.

Psalm 89:12 North-west filled them

North-West [ Yam-Tsaphon ] also written יָמָּה סּוּף [ Yam-Suph] ( Red-Sea) , this is not a Sea but a Mountain, known as הַר־נִשְׁפֶּה but commonly known as Mount Hermon.

Psalm 89:12 Mt-Hermon filled them
> Genesis 1:1 Mt-Elohim filled them ( Elohim is a dialectic form of Hermon)

Psa 89:12 - Hermon shall rejoice in thy name.

Job 37:9 ' Cold of the North [מְזָרִים] ... [ מִצְרַיִם] [ Egypt ]
Exodus 9:23 ' LORD rained hail upon the land of Egypt ( Lebanon)
https://vivliothikiagiasmatos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/joseph-yahuda-hebrew-is-greek.pdf
semiopen
Posts: 471
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:27 pm

Re: Was OT originally in Greek?

Post by semiopen »

Ethan wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:29 pm
Psalms 89:12 north-west created them
- Created is בָּרָא[Gen 1:1] although the word means Filled.

Psalm 89:12 North-west filled them

North-West [ Yam-Tsaphon ] also written יָמָּה סּוּף [ Yam-Suph] ( Red-Sea) , this is not a Sea but a Mountain, known as הַר־נִשְׁפֶּה but commonly known as Mount Hermon.

Psalm 89:12 Mt-Hermon filled them
> Genesis 1:1 Mt-Elohim filled them ( Elohim is a dialectic form of Hermon)

Psa 89:12 - Hermon shall rejoice in thy name.
i have no idea why I was quoted on this post, probably the explanation requires a lot of math.

However, I looked at 89:13. It's worth noting that the numbering is different in Jewish translations because line 1 -
A maskil of Ethan the Ezrahite (Ps. 89:1 TNK)
is separated from line 2.

Maybe this is a projection, but if there was a maskil of semiopen, I'd probably pay special attention to it.
North and south -- You created them; Tabor and Hermon sing forth Your name. (Ps. 89:13 TNK)
צָפ֣וֹן וְ֭יָמִין אַתָּ֣ה בְרָאתָ֑ם תָּב֥וֹר וְ֜חֶרְמ֗וֹן בְּשִׁמְךָ֥ יְרַנֵּֽנוּ׃
(Ps. 89:13 WTT)
This is the only place in the Jewish bible where we see צָפ֣וֹן וְ֭יָמִין.

All examples of this translation have north and south on Biblehub - http://biblehub.com/psalms/89-12.htm

Based on this, I was close to concluding that this was a universal view but found -

The translation of Psalm 89:13 and its implications https://www.academia.edu/6370376/The_tr ... plications
The translation of the second line presents no problems. In all English translations it is translated as the mountains Tabor and Hermon rejoicing in the Lord’s name. Translations, however, differ on the first line. Some translate the line as “north and south you created”. Others translate it as toponyms: “Zaphon and Yemin you created.
Apparently the reading of this as North West is quite dubious.
Abstract
Psalm 89:13a can be translated: “You created north and south.” However, it can also be translated as “Zaphon and Yemin you created,” In the former case the phrase is seen as an indication of the extensiveness of the earth. In the latter the translation points to the mythological form of the hymn section (Ps 89:2-19) in which it appears. This article chooses for the mythological alternative and substantiates this position from the northern toponyms used in the hymn and the hymn’s obvious mythological structure.
The combination ÷ymyw ÷wpx in line one does not occur elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible. In Psalm 107:3, Isaiah 49:12, and the Aramaic of Daniel 8:4 µy is found in combination with ÷wpx (cf Lisowsky 1958:1227-8). Koehler & Baumgartner (1958:384) give two probable meanings for the phrase in Psalm 89:13. It is either “Bergname oder Ersatz dafür”, referring to Eissfeldt’s “Baal Zaphon”, or “die rechte Seite ist die südliche Seite”, so that the combination indicates “Nord u. Süd”. Both geographical indications as well as geographical designations are linked to the word pair.

In the Septuagint (LXX 88:13) the word pair is translated as to\n Borra~n kai\ qala/ssav. This indicates that Hebrew text used for the Greek HTS 61(1&2) 2005 533 The translation of Psalm 89:13 and its implications translation probably had µy rather than the Masoretic ÷ymy. This could have
been the reason why it was translated as qala/ssa. In its text critical apparatus the BHS (Rudolph & Rüger 1984:1171) indicates qalassa as the
translation used in the original Septuagint, the Codex Alexandrinus, the recension of Lucianus and the Codex Parisinus Latinus. BHS does not,
however refer to any Hebrew manuscript containing a reading µy (without the final yod and min). The Septuagint therefore understands the word pair to refer to the north and the sea/west/south.
4. CONCLUSION
The parallelism between verses 13a and 13b indicates that these verses are to be translated in terms of each other. The strophe in which this verse
operates (89:10-13) indicates a movement from heaven down to earth. This movement is also found in the structure of the hymn. Heavenly space (89:6-9), earthly space (89:10-13), living space of human beings (89:14-15) and cultic space (89:16-19) form a vertical line from above to below. An all inclusive creation is depicted in terms of a mythological spatial view in which Yahweh, heavenly beings and humans on earth are interrelated to each other.Ideological conceptualised third space is used in the hymn to sing the glory of God. Verse 13a has therefore to be translated against this background as “Zaphon and Yemin you created”.
I'm not sure I agree completely with Dr. Venter but this is an interesting and deeply researched discussion of this verse.

It is quite positive and correct to call attention to this verse, however this is spoiled by associating it with the ludicrous proposition that the Greek version of the text is older than the Hebrew, in addition to the weakness of the analysis provided. This also demonstrates how time consuming it is to reply to idiotic assertions that are couched this way.
Ethan
Posts: 976
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:15 pm
Location: England
Contact:

Re: Was OT originally in Greek?

Post by Ethan »

The context of Psalms 89:12 are the mountains, Tabor and Hermon, , the context is how these mountains are filled with Snow with the cold of the
north [Job 37:9], The most interesting place in the Hebrew Bible is Mt. Hermon, it as so many different names and poetry assigned to it.

Thalassa (or Thalatta), this Greek often assigned too YAM, however it's etymology is unknown, but it maybe stems from טַל [Tal]
see Gen 27:28 ' dew of heaven' [ מִטַּל הַשָּׁמַיִם] , Isaiah 18:2 'cloud of dew ', Psalms 133:3 dew of Hermon

Red Sea however is different, the Redness comes from יַם as if it was read דָּם [Blood] , in Greek αἷμα [Aima] is Blood, If they were translating
from Red Sea, it be יַם אָדַם ( Yam Adam) , however אדם is Edom , also known as Seir [שֵׂעִיר] is an area around Mount Hermon [Joshua 11:17]
and Seir [Hairy] , the Gk translation can be ἀνθερεών [Anthereon], related top ἀνθρήνη[Anthrhne] meaning 'Wasp' which is צִרְעָה, from צָרַע meaning Leprous [ Gk -χειρ/Xeir], also root of Zarthen (Nazareth).

1 Kings 7:46- clay[אדם] ground between Succoth and Zarthan.
Joshua 3:16 - The city Adam[אדם], that is beside Zaretan:

The Hebrew Bible, oddly describes Leprous as Snow.

2 Kings 5:27 - leper as white as snow.
Exodus 4:6 - Behold, his hand was leprous as snow.

The Gk word 'Snow' is χιών (= Zion, Sion, Sinai, Shenir, Zin and Sinite)
Deuteronomy 4:48 - O mount Sion, which is Hermon.

It's all about the geographical context.
https://vivliothikiagiasmatos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/joseph-yahuda-hebrew-is-greek.pdf
outlander
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:16 pm

Re: Was OT originally in Greek?

Post by outlander »

My understanding is that the OT was originally written in Hebrew, but that text was from a different textual tradition from the Masoretic. The Hebrew which the Septuagint is based on is no longer available to us for some reason.

It is certainly ironic that the Septuagint is far older than the Masoretic text. One would think that the OLDER text would have preeminence.

As to why most Christian Bibles use the Masoretic text, I think this usage reflects a general mistrust of the Septuagint's accuracy, except among the Eastern Orthodox believers, who prefer the Septuagint.
semiopen
Posts: 471
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:27 pm

Re: Was OT originally in Greek?

Post by semiopen »

outlander wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:35 pm My understanding is that the OT was originally written in Hebrew, but that text was from a different textual tradition from the Masoretic. The Hebrew which the Septuagint is based on is no longer available to us for some reason.

It is certainly ironic that the Septuagint is far older than the Masoretic text. One would think that the OLDER text would have preeminence.

As to why most Christian Bibles use the Masoretic text, I think this usage reflects a general mistrust of the Septuagint's accuracy, except among the Eastern Orthodox believers, who prefer the Septuagint.
We are not talking about the oldest extant copy as the title of the thread makes clear.

The comment about the age of the Septuagint is inane.

Papyrus_Fouad_266
Papyrus Fouad 266 is a copy of the Pentateuch in the Greek version of the Hebrew Bible known as the Septuagint. It is a papyrus manuscript in scroll form. The manuscript has been assigned palaeographically to the 1st century BC. The manuscript has survived in a fragmentary condition. Discussion about this manuscript questions whether it is or is not a later recension of the standard Septuagint text.
It's not like an original copy of the Septuagint exists.

Nice try trying to bridge the gap between sensibility and stupidity though.
outlander
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:16 pm

Re: Was OT originally in Greek?

Post by outlander »

You have made perfectly clear that blogging with you is worse than a waste of time. Please don't comment on my "stupid" comments anymore, and I will afford you the same courtesy in the future.
Ethan
Posts: 976
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:15 pm
Location: England
Contact:

Re: Was OT originally in Greek?

Post by Ethan »

outlander wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:35 pm My understanding is that the OT was originally written in Hebrew, but that text was from a different textual tradition from the Masoretic. The Hebrew which the Septuagint is based on is no longer available to us for some reason.

It is certainly ironic that the Septuagint is far older than the Masoretic text. One would think that the OLDER text would have preeminence.

As to why most Christian Bibles use the Masoretic text, I think this usage reflects a general mistrust of the Septuagint's accuracy, except among the Eastern Orthodox believers, who prefer the Septuagint.
The mistrust of the Septuagint is more to do with hellenophobia rather then the actual text, I have being testing the accuracy of the Septuagint and i find more honest then the Masoretic, the Septuagint also preserves an original dialect
of Hebrew through it's transliterations.

Samson is transliterated Sampson (Σαμψων).
https://vivliothikiagiasmatos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/joseph-yahuda-hebrew-is-greek.pdf
Ethan
Posts: 976
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:15 pm
Location: England
Contact:

Re: Was OT originally in Greek?

Post by Ethan »

Job 38:37 reads "Bottles of Heaven" (נבלי שמים ) because נבלי (Nebeli) puns νεφέλῃ ( Nephele) "Clouds"

נבל (NBL) : νάβλα (Nabla) "musical instrument of ten/twelve strings" which is translated psalteries in the KJV ( 2 Samuel 6:5)

- Greek Instruments -
harps : κινύρα , κιθάρας (קיתרוס)
psalteries : νάβλα (נבל )
timbrels : τυμπάνοις (תף)
cornets : μουσικό κέρας (קרנא)
cymbals : κυμβάλοις , ψαλῶ, (צלצל)
Organ : ὀργάνῳ (עוגב )
https://vivliothikiagiasmatos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/joseph-yahuda-hebrew-is-greek.pdf
semiopen
Posts: 471
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:27 pm

Re: Was OT originally in Greek?

Post by semiopen »

outlander wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:35 pm
It is certainly ironic that the Septuagint is far older than the Masoretic text. One would think that the OLDER text would have preeminence.
Looked up the definition of preeminent.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/preeminent
eminent above or before others; superior; surpassing
What an eminently asinine comment.
User avatar
lpetrich
Posts: 331
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:20 am

Re: Was OT originally in Greek?

Post by lpetrich »

Ethan wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:13 pm... the Septuagint also preserves an original dialect
of Hebrew through it's transliterations. ...
Greek != Hebrew

Greek is not even close to Hebrew. It's closer to English and Spanish and Russian and Hindi than to Hebrew. As to Hebrew, it's much closer to Arabic than to Greek.
Post Reply