Plato and the Creation of the Hebrew Bible

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
Solstice
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Re: Plato and the Creation of the Hebrew Bible

Post by Solstice »

Would the concept of a Diglossia be applicable to this situation?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diglossia

(Diglossia) refers to a situation in which two dialects or languages are used by a single language community. In addition to the community's everyday or vernacular language variety (labelled "L" or "low" variety), a second, highly codified variety (labelled "H" or "high") is used in certain situations such as literature, formal education, or other specific settings, but not used for ordinary conversation
Solstice
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Re: Plato and the Creation of the Hebrew Bible

Post by Solstice »

To extend the question of a Diglossia, if at the height of the Roman Empire you'd have areas where Koine Greek was normally spoken everyday, but Latin was spoken in politics and higher education, would there have been a similar diglossia of Greek and Hebrew in Alexandria circa 270BC when these would have been written?
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DCHindley
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Re: Plato and the Creation of the Hebrew Bible

Post by DCHindley »

Solstice wrote:To extend the question of a Diglossia, if at the height of the Roman Empire you'd have areas where Koine Greek was normally spoken everyday, but Latin was spoken in politics and higher education, would there have been a similar diglossia of Greek and Hebrew in Alexandria circa 270BC when these would have been written?
Good question.

In Alexandria, at least, regardless of whether one believes Gmirkin's hypothesis (tho' I'm starting to like it more every day), there must have been Judeans bilingual in both Hebrew and Greek resident in Egypt in the 3rd century BCE to produce the Lxx Pentateuch.

One unusual quirk is the fact that Philo, an obviously "observant" Judean of the turn of the Christian era, knew Greek rather well, was familiar with Middle-Platonic Greek Philosophy, but did not appear to be knowledgeable of Hebrew at all. Other members of his family were Alabarchs and Procurators in charge of Judean affairs but apparently had largely assimilated Greek and Roman norms, and were not "observant". Philo may have decided to reclaim some of his ancestral identity, but had to restrict himself to the way it was practiced among Greek speaking Judeans resident in Egypt, due to an unfamiliarity with the Hebrew language, and perhaps a lack of persons who could guide him in learning it.

Alternatively, studies by Birger Pearson and others of the Judean influence on the development of "Sethian" Gnostic ideas can demonstrate that Hebrew/Aramaic words associated with the Pentateuch underlay a good number of the technical terms and names they utilized, meaning that in the 2nd or 3rd century CE, Egypt was again populated by folks bi-lingual in both Hebrew/Aramaic and Greek.

So, a significant number of bilingual Judeans in 3rd century BCE seems to dwindle to near extinction in the turn of the Christian era, only to reverse itself back to the other extreme in 3rd century CE, suggests a cycle. This is weird, seeing that the refugees from Judea and Samaria after the revolt of 66-74 CE, should have been offset by the destruction of the Temple of Onias IV around 74 CE and the almost complete eradication of Judeans in Egypt and the region in the aftermath of the Jewish uprisings of 110 CE. Perhaps the influx was again due to war, that of Bar Kosiba, in the 130s CE.

I dunno ...

DCH
Clive
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Re: Plato and the Creation of the Hebrew Bible

Post by Clive »

Might xianity have revived Hebrew? The problem of turning a superstitio into a religio is a big one, and the patina of an ancient language is very valuable.
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Russell Gmirkin
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Re: Plato and the Creation of the Hebrew Bible

Post by Russell Gmirkin »

FYI My book is now out at Routledge Press. I'm available to answer a few questions about my book for this list.

You may find detailed chapter outlines on my author's website or my page on Academia.

Best regards,
Russell Gmirkin
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Plato and the Creation of the Hebrew Bible

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Russell Gmirkin wrote:FYI My book is now out at Routledge Press. I'm available to answer a few questions about my book for this list.

You may find detailed chapter outlines on my author's website or my page on Academia.
Thank you for popping in. I very much enjoyed Berossus and Genesis, Manetho and Exodus. :)
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DCHindley
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Re: Plato and the Creation of the Hebrew Bible

Post by DCHindley »

Russell Gmirkin wrote:FYI My book is now out at Routledge Press. I'm available to answer a few questions about my book for this list.

You may find detailed chapter outlines on my author's website or my page on Academia.

Best regards,
Russell Gmirkin
Hello Russell,

I remember you from the heated discussions on the old ANE & ANE2 lists, and I think a couple others (IOUDIOS, maybe Crosstalk2).

You really made an impression on me then, then I drifted away from the ANE lists after they just became so mean-spirited. IIRC, you were yourself hounded by your *many* critics.

Looks like I'll have to pony up the $43 or the kindle book. :goodmorning:

DCH
Solstice
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Re: Plato and the Creation of the Hebrew Bible

Post by Solstice »

Russel Gmirkin, thanks for popping in. If I had a question it would be... Would a Diglossia have been probable in Alexandria around this time? If so, does it make any plausibility for the Greek/Hebrew versions to have been written at the same time?

For anyone, here's a direct link to Gmirkin's page on Academia:
http://independent.academia.edu/RussellGmirkin
And here's a link to an abstract of the book:
http://www.academia.edu/28285061/Plato_ ... d_Abstract_

My initial fascination is with Chp 4 which deals with the 10 Commandments (which we were all taught from an early age - I went to Catholic school) and finding how it's really derived from Greek philosophy (Commandments from the Seven Sages) and resembles very little of what would have been in existence at that time in the Near East.

Here's a webpage which outlines the "Sentences of the 7 Sages". Looking at the list - especially the first 4 rules - it could not be more obvious where the 10 Commandments came from:

Follow God
Heed the law
Honor the Gods
Care for your parents
http://www.john-uebersax.com/delphi/delphi5.htm


Googling more on "Commandments from the Seven Sages" I found this pdf of a magazine/book article from 1987 which describes how the "Commandments of the 7" had been in print since the Middle Ages and earlier but no one was quite sure if they were TRULY derived from the inscriptions at Delphi - until an excavation find in 1966 of a stone base dating to 3rd century BC.
http://www.flyallnight.com/khaire/Delph ... 3-1987.pdf
(Funny how 3rd century BC comes up a lot in this stuff)

Some humor:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXeTsWGPT0w
andrewcriddle
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Re: Plato and the Creation of the Hebrew Bible

Post by andrewcriddle »

Solstice wrote:Russel Gmirkin, thanks for popping in. If I had a question it would be... Would a Diglossia have been probable in Alexandria around this time? If so, does it make any plausibility for the Greek/Hebrew versions to have been written at the same time?

For anyone, here's a direct link to Gmirkin's page on Academia:
http://independent.academia.edu/RussellGmirkin
And here's a link to an abstract of the book:
http://www.academia.edu/28285061/Plato_ ... d_Abstract_

My initial fascination is with Chp 4 which deals with the 10 Commandments (which we were all taught from an early age - I went to Catholic school) and finding how it's really derived from Greek philosophy (Commandments from the Seven Sages) and resembles very little of what would have been in existence at that time in the Near East.

Here's a webpage which outlines the "Sentences of the 7 Sages". Looking at the list - especially the first 4 rules - it could not be more obvious where the 10 Commandments came from:

Follow God
Heed the law
Honor the Gods
Care for your parents
http://www.john-uebersax.com/delphi/delphi5.htm


Googling more on "Commandments from the Seven Sages" I found this pdf of a magazine/book article from 1987 which describes how the "Commandments of the 7" had been in print since the Middle Ages and earlier but no one was quite sure if they were TRULY derived from the inscriptions at Delphi - until an excavation find in 1966 of a stone base dating to 3rd century BC.
http://www.flyallnight.com/khaire/Delph ... 3-1987.pdf
(Funny how 3rd century BC comes up a lot in this stuff)

Some humor:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXeTsWGPT0w
At first sight "honour the Gods" (plural) and "you shall have no other gods before me" seem to derive from very different worldviews.

Andrew Criddle
Solstice
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Re: Plato and the Creation of the Hebrew Bible

Post by Solstice »

But notice that the very first law from the Cot7 is "Follow God" which is singular. Perhaps they meant a supreme God like Zeus? And the plural gods in #3 pertains to minor gods - as would have also been in the Ugartic pantheon?
http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/MSm ... eism.shtml

Also notice that the 10C's have the first 4 laws pertaining to God, and the remaining for humanity. The Cot7 also has this pattern with the first 3 for God (assuming "the law" in #2 is divine) and then the rest are for humanity.

Also notice that in both lists the very first humanity commandment pertains to parents.
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