Prophecy

[John2]

Regardless of what the prophetic books of the OT say about future events, when I used to observe Judaism I came to the conclusion, because of Deuteronomy 18:20-22, that a "true" prophet cannot prophesize about events that would occur after their lifetime, because otherwise how could they be put to death if they said something false?

But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.” You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.

That's pretty much where I left it, but I'm curious to see what anyone might think about this idea.

[andrewcriddle]

See Deuteronomy 13:1-5

13:1 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

Failure of the prophecy to come true is a sufficient reason to reject the prophet but not a necessary condition. A prophesy can be repudiated on other grounds.

Andrew Criddle

[John2]

I think the difference is that Dt. 13:1-5 is only referring to prophets who say, "Let us follow other gods (gods you have not known) and let us worship them,” and that even if this kind of prophet prophesizes something that comes true they should be put to death.

But Dt. 18:20-22 says that prophets who "speak in my name anything I have not commanded" and prophets who speak "in the name of other gods" should be put to death, and that the way to know "when a message has not been spoken by the Lord" by the first kind (the prophet who "proclaims in the name of the Lord") is if what he proclaims "does not take place or come true."

[BDJ]

I haven't counted the numbers (because there are hundreds), but I believe that the vast majority of the OT prophecies reflect on the 'here and now'. Most are of the form: 'if you (King/People) don't start behaving properly, then God will take some action".
Hence, the majority of prophecies are a not a prediction of future events, rather they are warnings from God, voiced by a prophet.

Some prophecies do seem to point to future events: I think these are restricted to 2 types:
- those relating to the Babylonian exile and return
- those relating to an End Time/Kingdom of God.

And even here, you could argue that these prophecies are not meant as prediction of future events, but as an expression of God's love and mercifulness.

There is also a third type, the prophecies that Christians read as foreshadowing the coming of Jesus. In this case, the prophecies are given a meaning extending beyond the context in which they were spoken, and are only intelligible with this meaning in hindsight (from a Christian perspective).

[John2]

BDJ wrote:

"There is also a third type, the prophecies that Christians read as foreshadowing the coming of Jesus. In this case, the prophecies are given a meaning extending beyond the context in which they were spoken, and are only intelligible with this meaning in hindsight (from a Christian perspective)."

This is exactly what I'm driving at (though I also include any kind of speculation by anyone about distant future events derived from the prophets). I don't see the point of making (or interpreting) prophecies about events after the lifetime of the prophet. "Hey, good news. Hundreds of years from now, good things are going to happen. You won't be around to see it, but I thought I'd give you a heads up." And Dt. 18:19 says, "I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name," and I don't see how can that can happen if the prophecy is about the distant future. So it sounds like we are in agreement.

[John2]

On the other hand, I think Deuteronomy was written by Jeremiah (as per Friedman) or in any event wasn't known (or created) until the time of Josiah (as per 2 Kings 22), so any prophet before this time (whether real of fictional) would not have been aware of Dt. 18:20-22. But the logic of Dt. 18:20-22 precludes prophecies about distant future events.

[BDJ]

Your view makes sense if you read the OT as if it were a history book. That is fine, it is a possible to read the stories that way, although most readers (Jews and Christians) tend to read it with a broader scope (e.g. telling eternal truths, and/or speaking about our present lives).

The reading of OT prophecy as foretelling Jesus goes all the way back to the letters of Paul, and is clearly stated as 'gospel' in Luke 24:44. I would even go so far as to say that the New Testament can only be properly understood while reading the OT in this way........

[John2]

Earlier than that even, I would reckon, BDJ. Btw, where have you been all my life? I like the way you think. In the Netherlands, I guess.

[BDJ]

Earlier than Paul, what do you mean?
And yes, I follow in the tradition of the Dutch Radicals..............

[iskander]

Your view makes sense if you read the OT as if it were a history book. That is fine, it is a possible to read the stories that way, although most readers (Jews and Christians) tend to read it with a broader scope (e.g. telling eternal truths, and/or speaking about our present lives).

The reading of OT prophecy as foretelling Jesus goes all the way back to the letters of Paul, and is clearly stated as 'gospel' in Luke 24:44. I would even go so far as to say that the New Testament can only be properly understood while reading the OT in this way........

A Christian may answer that, when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, and that this coming exposed later generations to insights withheld from the ancients.