Was Jesus an Essene?

[Stephan Huller]

I don't want to distracted by these shotgun assertions put forward by John T, but the debate with spin was clearly lost by John T who has a habit - like many at this forum of making assertion after assertion with only the most superficial of attempts to ignore the situation 'on the ground' as it were in scholarship. Eisenman's theories about the Qumran material have been thoroughly disproven by carbon dating (which is why he and Atwill were left scrambling to justify 'ignoring' the carbon dating results). Anyone - like John T - who want to piggy bag on to a discredited theory have to somehow rescue the wreck from being lost in the swamp so to speak. He has to provide a compelling reason why the carbon dating doesn't allow for the Qumran material to be about James and Jesus and the rest of this nonsense.

Rather than waste a lot of time here at the forum finding some 'out' - I would recommend John T develop his ideas in the form of an essay or a paper and have it peer reviewed by someone in Qumran studies. I don't think anyone is interested in a Eisenman 2.0. It's a silly theory - it's silly to argue that the Qumran material is 'about' James and James.

With that said it is interesting to explore the connection between the Essenes and early Christianity because the point is made by a number of Church Fathers and so it has at least something going for it. As I noted in my first post the place to begin is the name 'Essene.' It is nice that Steven Goranson, Andrew Criddle and a number of other bright minds have entered the discussion (although I wish that Goranson would help provide us with WHAT THE MATERIAL SAYS - i.e. even a sentence or two summary - because we often don't have the access to material in the way he does).

When I was learning Hebrew and Aramaic from Rory Boid of Monash University he was convinced that Essenes came from אסו. Here is the CAL entry for אסו

ˀsw, ˀswtˀ (ˀāsū, ˀāsūṯā) n.f. healing

1 healing Com. IshJer 11:24 : ܫܥܘܬܐ܃ ܘܐ‍{‍ܪ‍}‍‍<‍ܣ‍>‍ܘܬܐ܃ ܠܝܬ ܒܓܠܥܕ there is no balm and healing in Gilead. BT San 109b(18) : הב ליה אגרא דשקל לך דמא ועבד לך אסותא give him (his) fee because he let blood for you and cured you. (a) remedy JBA. TN Gen3:15 : לבריה יהוי אסו ולך חויה לא יהוי אסו his son will be cured, but you, serpent, will not be cured.

Here is the link to Jastrow http://cal1.cn.huc.edu/showjastrow.php?page=89 The obvious advantage that the etymology has going for it is that it can explain the link with Philo's Therapeuts. Jesus is also described as both a physician and a healer. I think however that the Qumran material shows that Hebrew was very much a living language in the Jewish community at this time. Not sure that an ancient Jewish sect would give itself an Aramaic name. I think it would be rooted in a Hebrew terminology.

[John2]

Stephan,

You wrote:

"I think however that the Qumran material shows that Hebrew was very much a living language in the Jewish community at this time. Not sure that an ancient Jewish sect would give itself an Aramaic name. I think it would be rooted in a Hebrew terminology."


I agree with you, and Eisenman suggests the possibility that it may have been derived from "ossei/ossim" or "doers" (of the Torah in the House of Judah), which is found in the Habakkuk Pesher (col. 7 and 8):

"'But the righteous shall live by his faith' (2:4b).

Interpreted, this concerns all those who observe the Law [ossei ha-torah] in the House of Judah, whom God will deliver from the House of judgement because of their suffering and because of their faith in the Teacher of Righteousness."

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/6213.htm

[John2]

It's off topic, but it ought to be noted as well that the word that Vermes translates in the Habakuk Pesher above as "suffering" is "amal," which can have the sense of "labor" (or "works"):

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5998.htm

So the above could be rendered as "because of their works and because of their faith in the Teacher of Righteousness," a concept similar to the works and faith concept in the Letter of James.

[John T]

I don't want to distracted by these shotgun assertions put forward by John T, but the debate with spin was clearly lost by John T who has a habit - like many at this forum of making assertion after assertion with only the most superficial of attempts to ignore the situation 'on the ground' as it were in scholarship. Eisenman's theories about the Qumran material have been thoroughly disproven by carbon dating (which is why he and Atwill were left scrambling to justify 'ignoring' the carbon dating results)....

Eisenman's theories about the Qumran material have been thoroughly disproven by carbon dating and discredited by who, Huller and Spin?
Do you really want to be embarrassed once again by the admitted discrepancies in the radio-carbon data?

Also, by all means, cut&paste the old thread and see what I actually wrote and contrast that to what you want others to believe I wrote.
What you will find is that I had little doubt that the Qumran community was still active during the time of Jesus and up to the time of the destruction by the Romans around 68 A.D. I still support that theory, it is not unique and it is supported by many experts in the field.

Huller, do you really dispute that ?
If so, you should develop your idea in the form of an essay or a paper and have it peer reviewed by someone in Qumran studies.

For the rest of use who accept the main-stream theory that Qumran was indeed a place where some of the Dead Sea Scrolls were written all the way up to the time of the Roman revolt, it is a valid question to ask; What is the probability that Jesus was an Essene?

Remember, Josephus as a teenager tried to be an Essene.
The question is not as far fetch as Huller would like you to think.

John T

[John2]

It should also be noted that Paul cites the above Hab 2:4 (twice) to justify his gospel of faith without works:

http://biblehub.com/galatians/3-11.htm

http://biblehub.com/romans/1-17.htm

And it's also mentioned in Heb. 10:38:

http://biblehub.com/hebrews/10-38.htm

So not only was this an important verse in early Christian writings (and used to justify works without faith), it's interesting that it is used in the DSS to justify works and faith and applied to Jews only (i.e., those in "the House of Judah").

[John T]

"And the Lord will accomplish glorious things which have never been [He..] for He will heal the wounded, and revive the dead and bring good news to the poor."...(4Q521) A Messianic Apocalypse.

"Jesus answered them, "Go and tell John what you hear and see: the dead are raised, and the poor have good news brought to them." ... Matthew 11:4-5.

[Stephan Huller]

Eisenman's theories about the Qumran material have been thoroughly disproven by carbon dating and discredited by who, Huller and Spin?
Do you really want to be embarrassed once again by the admitted discrepancies in the radio-carbon data?

I would welcome a list of specialists in Qumranic studies who follow the Eisenman model. Find me three:

1.
2.
3.

[Stephan Huller]

What you will find is that I had little doubt that the Qumran community was still active during the time of Jesus and up to the time of the destruction by the Romans around 68 A.D. I still support that theory, it is not unique and it is supported by many experts in the field.

Huller, do you really dispute that ?

I would even go further - the text of Exodus used by the community (or something very similar) was employed by the circle of Rabbi Ishmael.

[Stephan Huller]

I agree with you, and Eisenman suggests the possibility that it may have been derived from "ossei/ossim" or "doers" (of the Torah in the House of Judah), which is found in the Habakkuk Pesher (col. 7 and 8):

Well that's another possibility. So we have 'healers' and 'doers.' Any other theories out there before I offer up mine?

[John T]

Eisenman's theories about the Qumran material have been thoroughly disproven by carbon dating and discredited by who, Huller and Spin?
Do you really want to be embarrassed once again by the admitted discrepancies in the radio-carbon data?

I would welcome a list of specialists in Qumranic studies who follow the Eisenman model. Find me three:

1.
2.
3.

You are once again trying to spin, just like Spin.

I would welcome a list of specialists in Qumranic studies who follow the Huller model. Find me three:

1.
2.
3.