Was Josephus a Turncoat?

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
John2
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Re: Was Josephus a Turncoat?

Post by John2 »

I prefer what Josephus did over what Jesus and (other) Fourth Philosophers did, which amounted to dying (on crosses, on Masada, etc., and some Fourth Philosophers killed other Jews who sought peaceful co-existence with Rome).

I also received from Vespasian no small quantity of land, as a free gift, in Judea about which time I divorced my wife also, as not pleased with her behavior, though not till she had been the mother of three children, two of whom are dead, and one whom I named Hyrcanus, is alive. After this I married a wife who had lived at Crete, but a Jewess by birth: a woman she was of eminent parents, and such as were the most illustrious in all the country, and whose character was beyond that of most other women, as her future life did demonstrate. By her I had two sons; the elder's name was Justus, and the next Simonides, who was also named Agrippa" (Life 76).



This is no different than ben Zakkai receiving Yavne and other favors from Vespasian. And Josephus lived, and in Judea at that (just like ben Zakkai), as Jews are commanded to do in the OT (e.g., Lev. 18:5: "You shall therefore keep my statutes and my rules; if a person does them, he shall live by them"). The Messiah dream is not worth dying for, in my view, and Fourth Philosophic Judaism (whose driving motivation was messianism) resulted in nothing but fewer Jews (and loss of autonomy), while Josephus had five children and lived to an old age in Judea, and you can't have Judaism without Jews.
Last edited by John2 on Wed Mar 13, 2024 3:30 pm, edited 4 times in total.
John2
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Re: Was Josephus a Turncoat?

Post by John2 »

I don't see how Josephus is any different than Joseph. They both worked for and received favors from pagan rulers and were concerned with saving lives and having a family and lived to an old age and lived in (or were buried in) the Land of Israel.

... his jealous brothers sell him into slavery in Egypt, where he eventually ends up incarcerated. After correctly interpreting the dreams of Pharaoh, however, he rises to second-in-command in Egypt and saves Egypt during a famine. Jacob's family travels to Egypt to escape the famine, and it is through him that they are given leave to settle in the Land of Goshen (the eastern part of the Nile Delta) ...

Joseph's family personally met the Pharaoh of Egypt. The Pharaoh honored their stay and even proposed that if there were any qualified men in their house, then they may elect a chief herdsman to oversee Egyptian livestock. Because the Pharaoh had such a high regard for Joseph, practically making him his equal, it had been an honor to meet his father. Thus, Israel was able to bless the Pharaoh. (Genesis 47:1–47:12) The family was then settled in Goshen ...

After their father died, the brothers of Joseph feared retribution for being responsible for Joseph's deliverance into Egypt as a slave. Joseph wept as they spoke and told them that what had happened was God's purpose to save lives and the lives of his family. He comforted them and their ties were reconciled. (Genesis 50:15–21)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_(Genesis)



You might say Fourth Philosophers were like Joseph's brothers and they "sold" Josephus to the Romans by only giving him a worse option (death, either by having him fight a futile religious war against the Romans or by committing suicide if caught). Fourth Philosophic Judaism (in which I include Christianity) led to death, and I think Josephus was right to abandon that path.
John2
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Re: Was Josephus a Turncoat?

Post by John2 »

Josephus was also like Daniel, who served a pagan ruler and changed his name "while remaining true to the God of Israel":

According to the Hebrew Bible, Daniel was a noble Jewish youth of Jerusalem taken into captivity by Nebuchadnezzar II of Babylon, serving the king and his successors with loyalty and ability until the time of the Persian conqueror Cyrus, all the while remaining true to the God of Israel ... Daniel is given the Babylonian name Belteshazzar ...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_(biblical_figure)

In another thread (and thanks for finding it, DC), Ben (citing Mason) notes:

Furthermore, Josephus must have identified both with Joseph and with Daniel for the fact that he, too, was an expatriate flourishing in a foreign court:


Steve Mason, Josephus, Judea, and Christian Origins, page 110: The biblical Joseph and Daniel, who famously prospered on foreign soil, are — with Jeremiah — Josephus's best-loved models, crucial to his literary self-representation.


Joseph and Daniel flourished precisely because of their prophetic abilities, which Josephus claims also to possess. In Wars 3.8.3 §352, he writes about himself that he "was able to give shrewd conjectures about the interpretation of such dreams as have been ambiguously [ἀμφιβόλως] delivered by God."

Was Daniel a turncoat? Same answer. No way.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Was Josephus a Turncoat?

Post by Peter Kirby »

Can you define the point of the thread without the pejorative and now meaningless term "turncoat"?
John2
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Re: Was Josephus a Turncoat?

Post by John2 »

I've heard the word used a lot in reference to Josephus (including on the forum), and I suppose the point of the thread is the same as Peskowitz's (linked to in the OP):

If you haven't embodied notions of hybridity and the multicultural, if you tend to lean toward singular communities and away from the intellectual imaginarium of a globalized, motion-filled world, then Josephus's complexity, his ability to overlap and live in several worlds, and additionally, his veering away from Jewish militarism won't seem like merits.

If you're able, though, to consider the ancient first century differently, to imagine what it sounded like, to reconsider the complexities of identity, and to consider what the emotional world that created everything from early Christianity to the rabbinic movement may have felt like, then Josephus becomes quite interesting. This is the heart of my historian's transgression: to meet Josephus head on and humanly. Look around. He's the dude with his heart on his sleeve. If you actually read his writing, this becomes easier and easier to see. Josephus has gotten a bad rap for living between two cultures, for not being a pure Jewish rebel. I disagree, really. I think much of our best work comes from living at the margins and in multiple uncomfortable places.
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Re: Was Josephus a Turncoat?

Post by Peter Kirby »

John2 wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 2:38 pm I've heard the word used a lot in reference to Josephus (including on the forum), and I suppose the point of the thread is the same as Peskowitz's (linked to in the OP):

If you haven't embodied notions of hybridity and the multicultural, if you tend to lean toward singular communities and away from the intellectual imaginarium of a globalized, motion-filled world, then Josephus's complexity, his ability to overlap and live in several worlds, and additionally, his veering away from Jewish militarism won't seem like merits.

If you're able, though, to consider the ancient first century differently, to imagine what it sounded like, to reconsider the complexities of identity, and to consider what the emotional world that created everything from early Christianity to the rabbinic movement may have felt like, then Josephus becomes quite interesting. This is the heart of my historian's transgression: to meet Josephus head on and humanly. Look around. He's the dude with his heart on his sleeve. If you actually read his writing, this becomes easier and easier to see. Josephus has gotten a bad rap for living between two cultures, for not being a pure Jewish rebel. I disagree, really. I think much of our best work comes from living at the margins and in multiple uncomfortable places.
So Josephus is "quite interesting" and "between two cultures," with "ability to overlap and live in several worlds" and you could count "his veering away from Jewish militarism" as "merits."

So the point of the thread is that Josephus was not bad?
John2
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Re: Was Josephus a Turncoat?

Post by John2 »

Not as bad as I've heard and thought. My estimation of him as only increased recently, as far as his efforts to preserve Judaism go.
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Re: Was Josephus a Turncoat?

Post by Peter Kirby »

So he was a good turncoat, lol.
John2
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Re: Was Josephus a Turncoat?

Post by John2 »

He wasn't a turncoat to his nation, is what I'm saying, anymore than ben Zakkai. And while he abandoned the Fourth Philosophy, he was affiliated with the Pharisees, and they had the predominant form of Judaism (continuing into Rabbinic Judaism). Josephus betrayed the Fourth Philosophy, but not Judaism.
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Re: Was Josephus a Turncoat?

Post by Peter Kirby »

I guess the point of the OP is that you find it inconsistent the way ben Zakkai and Josephus are honored in memory (by unnamed persons).
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