Normative Judaism, or evolution from/after the Septuagint?

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
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MrMacSon
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Normative Judaism, or evolution from/after the Septuagint?

Post by MrMacSon » Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:27 pm

[edited font colour and size to change emphasis]

I have been intrigued by the influence of Hellenism on the Jewish culture 3rd to 1st C BCE starting increased diversity in Judaism -

Hellenic Jews removed their marks of circumcision and repudiated the holy covenant First book of Maccabees; the only version being in the Septuagint. Some even sought foreskin reconstruction.
The major literary product of the contact of Judaism and Hellenistic culture is the Septuagint, as well as the so-called apocrypha and pseudepigraphic apocalyptic literature (such as the Assumption of Moses, the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, the Book of Baruch, the Greek Apocalypse of Baruch, etc.) dating to the period. Important sources are Philo of Alexandria and Flavius Josephus. Some scholars[6] consider Paul of Tarsus to be a Hellenist as well, even though he himself claimed to be a Pharisee (Acts 23:6).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenist ... #Influence
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stephan happy huller
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Re: Hadrian and the Christians

Post by stephan happy huller » Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:00 pm

There was an established position associated with the Sadducees (and to some degree the Samaritans retain this understanding) that only the ten utterances (ten commandments) came from God. The other 603 commandments were developed from the authority of Moses. Since circumcision was not included in the ten 'god given' commandments, it was not held by some to be legally binding or required.
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Re: Evolution from/after the Septuagint

Post by MrMacSon » Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:22 pm

OK, but the point is that there was the start of significant cultural change and, to a degree, upheaval.

Particularly changes in literature: I think the apocrypha and pseudepigraphic apocalyptic literature had a lot more influence on the development of Christianity than has been generally acknowledged

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Re: Hadrian and the Christians

Post by stephan happy huller » Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:33 pm

Yeah but that's the misunderstanding of Jewish law that white people always want to get around. The same thing is found in Islam. You can't just make shit up. It's not a creative writing exercise. There are precedents that are established and people have to obey otherwise they will quite literally take you in a field and kill you. Only a messianic figure can rewrite the law and the established exegesis of that material.
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Re: 'evolution' during/after the 2nd Century BCE

Post by MrMacSon » Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:43 pm

stephan happy huller wrote:Yeah but that's the misunderstanding of Jewish law that white people always want to get around.
huh?
stephan happy huller wrote:The same thing is found in Islam. You can't just make shit up. It's not a creative writing exercise.
huh?

stephan happy huller wrote:There are precedents that are established and people have to obey otherwise they will quite literally take you in a field and kill you. Only a messianic figure can rewrite the law and the established exegesis of that material.
you mean "precedents that were established"?

Sure, but my point was there was considerable upheaval over subsequent centuries, especially during the 1st C, that would have negated 'established order' and [previous] "authority", resulting in a myriad of new exegesis!

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Re: Re: Evolution from/after the Septuagint

Post by MrMacSon » Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:17 pm

I think my thesis is clear - there was upheaval from the times of the Hellenism of Judaism (including the Maccabee Revolt) through to the end of the Roman-Jewish Wars (by which most Jews had been exiled or enslave or both): there would have been disruptions to may communities and religious orders, as evidenced by the many new literary works of those times.
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Re: Hadrian and the Christians

Post by stephan happy huller » Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:23 pm

there was upheaval from the times of the Hellenism of Judaism (including the Maccabee Revolt) through to the end of the Roman-Jewish Wars (by which most Jews had been exiled or enslave or both): there would have been disruptions to may communities and religious orders, as evidenced by the many new literary works of those times.
Nevertheless even with all this variation anyone with any knowledge of the Pentateuch knows that you can't get that much variation out of this text. When I was in Israel the last time, I had two conflicting obligations on the same sabbath evening. So you know what I did? I actually paid a cab driver like 300 shekels to go across Tel Aviv to visit my Samaritan friend Benny and tell him 'here I am' and spend 10 minutes talking before I went back to my other friend Simcha's house. They both were celebrating the same legal obligation. Two different interpretations of the same text and guess what? While there was slightly different applications of the same rules but it was obvious it was the religion.

FWIW the cab driver I had was Sephardic so the whole time I am talking to Benny I am under this pressure to get back the outskirts by this guy who is trying to get me to observe the sabbath his way and according to his teacher (whose name he made me memorize three times but I still forgot anyway).

The point again three different schools of thought, some separated by millennia but nevertheless not that much difference between them. All I needed was a Karaite doorman letting me into one of the houses and I would run the full gamut of possibilities.

The bottom line is that for these people the differences that separate them are monstrous. My cab driver didn't even know this was the Samaritan part of Tel Aviv and expressed no interest in their traditions considering them 'deviants.' But in reality it's just three sides of the same basic paradigm

It's not like you are going to find some massive variation from the basic pattern of similarity because there is only so much you can fuck around with the written text that binds all of them together.
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Re: Re: Evolution from/after the Septuagint

Post by MrMacSon » Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:13 pm

Nevertheless even with all this variation anyone with any knowledge of the
stephan happy huller wrote:Pentateuch knows that you can't get that much variation out of this text. When I was in Israel the last time, I had two conflicting obligations on the same sabbath evening. So you know what I did? I actually paid a cab driver like 300 shekels to go across Tel Aviv to visit my Samaritan friend Benny and tell him 'here I am' and spend 10 minutes talking before I went back to my other friend Simcha's house. They both were celebrating the same legal obligation. Two different interpretations of the same text ...
Yes; same text in the same time in the same city/community.

I am referring to a [dispersed] text, translated and transliterated into various versions, in different dispersed communities over several/many generations -

different places, different times; with increasingly different texts.

The point again three different schools of thought, some separated by millennia but nevertheless not that much difference between them.

Sure, but one of the consequences of past divergence has been clinging to central themes: we see that in many belief-systems.

stephan happy huller wrote: It's not like you are going to find some massive variation from the basic pattern of similarity because there is only so much you can fuck around with the written text that binds all of them together.
Yes, the written text is now constant. I am saying that the gnostic and christian texts were evolving and changing in those times.
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Re: Hadrian and the Christians

Post by stephan happy huller » Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:36 pm

I am referring to a [dispersed] text, translated and transliterated into various versions, in different dispersed communities over several/many generations -

So you suppose that a translation of the rules about building a sukkah are going to transform Judaism? I don't understand. Please give an example.
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Re: Re: Evolution from/after the Septuagint

Post by MrMacSon » Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:59 pm

I probably should've referred to plural

- the
  • [dispersed] texts, translated and transliterated into various versions, in different dispersed communities; over several/many generations -"
that I propose/postulate is
  • 1. versions of the Septuagint in the first instance, then
    2. the apocrypha that seem to have arisen from
    • a. variations in the Septuagint, and
      b. increasing production and use of written literature that occurred at the time.
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