The Mishna, etc

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
iskander
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Re: The Mishna, etc

Post by iskander » Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:43 pm

2 COR 12: 2-4
From G. Scholem. Kabbala
The pardes which R. Akiva and his companions entered is the world of the celestial Garden of Eden or the realm of the heavenly palaces and the ascent or "rapture" is common to several Jewish apocalypses, and is mentioned by Paul (II Cor. 1 2: 2-4) as something which needs no explanation for his readers of Jewish origin

iskander
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Re: The Mishna, etc

Post by iskander » Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:21 pm

THE APOCALYPSE OF EZRA 51
The temporary Messianic Kingdom and the End of the World (VII. 26-[44J)
26. For behold the days come, and it shall be when the signs come which I have foretold to thee, and the bride shall be revealed, appearing as a city, and there shall be revealed she that is now cut off : 27. and whoever is delivered from these evils which e been predicted, he shall see my wonders. . (the new Jerusalem descending from heaven as a bride) (The Heavenly Jerusalem , the city which is now invisible)

28. For my son the Messiah shall be revealed...
29. And it shall be after these years my son the Messiah shall die,..
31. And it shall be after seven days that world shall be awakened, which now is not awake, and corruption shall perish..
(The present corruptible world-order vanishes away with the coming of the New Age; cf. i Cor. xv. 26.)( Romans 9,5-4)
Post by iskander » Wed Jul 27, 2016 3:40 am

Re: to Iskander: Romans 9:4-5
Romans 9:4
They are descendants of Israel, chosen to be God's sons; theirs is the glory of the divine presence, theirs the covenants, the law, the temple worship, and the promises.

Romans 9:5
The patriarchs are theirs, and from them by natural descent came the Messiah. May God, supreme above all , be blessed for ever! Amen.
The Oxford Study Bible

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MrMacSon
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Re: The Mishna, etc

Post by MrMacSon » Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:20 pm

iskander wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:03 pm

Gnosis and Judaism,

gnostic kabala1.PNG
gnostic kabala1.PNG (11.22 KiB) Viewed 120 times

From , Gershom Scholem, Kabbalah [Doreset Press; 1967, 1978; 1st edn, December 1987]

To what extent the growth of Gnostic tendencies within Judaism itself preceded their development in early Christianity1 is still the subject of lively scholarly controversy. Peterson, Haenchen, and Quispel, in particular, along with several experts on the Dead Sea Scrolls, have tried to prove that Jewish forms of Gnosis, which retained a belief in the unity of God and rejected any dualistic notions, came into being before the formation of Christianity2 and were centered particularly around the idea of primordial man (following speculation on Gen. 1 : 2 6 ; " Adam Kadmon"). The image of the Messiah, characteristic of the Christian Gnostics3, was absent here. These scholars have interpreted several of the earliest documents of Gnostic literature as Gnostic Midrashim on cosmogony, and Haenchen in particular has argued that their basic Jewish character is clearly recognizable in an analysis of the teaching of Simon Magus, apparently the leader of Samaritan Gnosis, a first-century heterodox Judaism. Even before this, M. Friedlaender had surmised that antinomian Gnostic tendencies (which belittled the value of the Commandments) had also developed within Judaism before the rise of Christianity
.
Cheers, that's interesting.

1. It would be interesting to know how the concept of 'growth of Gnostic tendencies within Judaism' has been perceived or advanced in the thirty+ years since Scholem wrote Kabbalah; as well a perceptions about their different development before and during early Christianity.

2. re "Jewish forms of Gnosis [retained a belief in the unity of God and rejected any dualistic notions] came into being before the formation of Christianity" - do we know any more?

3. I'm intrigued whether Scholem made reference to Jewish 'Messiahs' or messiah-claimants.

The interpretation of early documents of Gnostic literature as Gnostic Midrashim on cosmogony is interesting, as the notion that their basic Jewish character is clearly recognizable in an analysis of the teaching of Simon Magus.
Last edited by MrMacSon on Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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MrMacSon
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Re: The Mishna, etc

Post by MrMacSon » Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:36 pm

iskander wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:06 pm

Concepts which did not originate exclusively in Jewish mysticism, like the idea of the Shekhinah and the hypostases of stern judgment and compassion, could easily have been interpreted according to the theory of the "aeons" and incorporated with Gnostic ideas. The "exile of the Shekhinah," originally an aggadic idea, was assimilated in Jewish circles at a particular stage with the Gnostic idea of the divine spark that is in exile in the terrestrial world, and also with the mystic view of the Jewish concept of 'the keneset Yisrael' ("the community of Israel") as a heavenly entity that represents the historical community of Israel.
.
iskander wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:08 pm

one god. but two or more hypostases

From Gershom Scholem, Kabbalah
It is evident, however, that in Jewish Gnostic circles the concept of the Shekhinah occupied a completely new position. In the early sources "Shekhinah " is an expression used to denote the presence of God Himself in the world and is no more than a name for that presence; it later becomes a hypostasis distinguished from God, a distinction that first appears in the late Midrash to Proverbs (Mid. Prov. 47a : "the Shekhinah stood before the Holy One, blessed be He, and said to Him").

In contrast to this separation of God and His Shekhinah, there arose another original concept - the identification of the Shekhinah with 'keneset Yisrael' ("the community of Israel")
.
Also, interesting. It would be interesting to know when the concept of the Shekhinah changed, and when 'identification of the Shekhinah with keneset Yisrael' arose.

iskander
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Re: The Mishna, etc

Post by iskander » Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:39 am

MrMacSon wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:36 pm
iskander wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:06 pm

Concepts which did not originate exclusively in Jewish mysticism, like the idea of the Shekhinah and the hypostases of stern judgment and compassion, could easily have been interpreted according to the theory of the "aeons" and incorporated with Gnostic ideas. The "exile of the Shekhinah," originally an aggadic idea, was assimilated in Jewish circles at a particular stage with the Gnostic idea of the divine spark that is in exile in the terrestrial world, and also with the mystic view of the Jewish concept of 'the keneset Yisrael' ("the community of Israel") as a heavenly entity that represents the historical community of Israel.
.
iskander wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:08 pm

one god. but two or more hypostases

From Gershom Scholem, Kabbalah
It is evident, however, that in Jewish Gnostic circles the concept of the Shekhinah occupied a completely new position. In the early sources "Shekhinah " is an expression used to denote the presence of God Himself in the world and is no more than a name for that presence; it later becomes a hypostasis distinguished from God, a distinction that first appears in the late Midrash to Proverbs (Mid. Prov. 47a : "the Shekhinah stood before the Holy One, blessed be He, and said to Him").

In contrast to this separation of God and His Shekhinah, there arose another original concept - the identification of the Shekhinah with 'keneset Yisrael' ("the community of Israel")
.
Also, interesting. It would be interesting to know when the concept of the Shekhinah changed, and when 'identification of the Shekhinah with keneset Yisrael' arose.

"1. The State of Research:
The Views of Graetz and Neumark
The question of the origin and early stages of the Kabbalah, that form of Jewish mysticism and theosophy that appears to have emerged suddenly in the thirteenth century, is indisputably one of the most difficult in the history of the Jewish religion after the destruction of the Second Temple.

Just as indisputably, it is one of the most important. The significance acquired by the kabbalistic movement within the Jewish world was so great and its influence at times so preponderant that if one wishes to understand the religious possibilities inherent in Judaism, the problem of the specific historical character of this phenomenon appears to be of primary importance.Researchers, therefore, have justly devoted a great deal of attention to this problem and have made diverse attempts to find a solution.

The difficulty does not lie only in the prejudices with which many scholars have approached this problem, although such prejudices—whether of an apologetic or of an explicitly hostile nature—are in no small measure responsible for the prevailing confusion..


Kabbalah is a unique phenomenon, and should not be considered to be identical with what is known in the history of religion as "mysticism." It is mysticism in fact; but at the same time it is both esotericism and theosophy. .. Kabbalah may be considered mysticism in sofa r as it seeks an apprehension of God and creation whose intrinsic elements are beyond the grasp of the intellect, although this is seldom explicitly belittled or rejected by the kabbalists...
Nevertheless, there are elements common to Kabbalah and both Greek and Christian mysticism, and even historical links between them." Gershom Scholem. Origins of the Kabbalah



Highlighting those elements common to Jewish mysticism and both Greek and Christianity mysticism is all what my posts hope to achieve.

iskander
Posts: 1963
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Re: The Mishna, etc

Post by iskander » Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:00 am

MrMacSon wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:20 pm
iskander wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:03 pm

Gnosis and Judaism,


gnostic kabala1.PNG


From , Gershom Scholem, Kabbalah [Doreset Press; 1967, 1978; 1st edn, December 1987]

To what extent the growth of Gnostic tendencies within Judaism itself preceded their development in early Christianity1 is still the subject of lively scholarly controversy. Peterson, Haenchen, and Quispel, in particular, along with several experts on the Dead Sea Scrolls, have tried to prove that Jewish forms of Gnosis, which retained a belief in the unity of God and rejected any dualistic notions, came into being before the formation of Christianity2 and were centered particularly around the idea of primordial man (following speculation on Gen. 1 : 2 6 ; " Adam Kadmon"). The image of the Messiah, characteristic of the Christian Gnostics3, was absent here. These scholars have interpreted several of the earliest documents of Gnostic literature as Gnostic Midrashim on cosmogony, and Haenchen in particular has argued that their basic Jewish character is clearly recognizable in an analysis of the teaching of Simon Magus, apparently the leader of Samaritan Gnosis, a first-century heterodox Judaism. Even before this, M. Friedlaender had surmised that antinomian Gnostic tendencies (which belittled the value of the Commandments) had also developed within Judaism before the rise of Christianity
.
Cheers, that's interesting.

1. It would be interesting to know how the concept of 'growth of Gnostic tendencies within Judaism' has been perceived or advanced in the thirty+ years since Scholem wrote Kabbalah; as well a perceptions about their different development before and during early Christianity.

2. re "Jewish forms of Gnosis [retained a belief in the unity of God and rejected any dualistic notions] came into being before the formation of Christianity" - do we know any more?

3. I'm intrigued whether Scholem made reference to Jewish 'Messiahs' or messiah-claimants.

The interpretation of early documents of Gnostic literature as Gnostic Midrashim on cosmogony is interesting, as the notion that their basic Jewish character is clearly recognizable in an analysis of the teaching of Simon Magus.
1. It would be interesting to know how the concept of 'growth of Gnostic tendencies within Judaism' has been perceived or advanced in the thirty+ years since Scholem wrote Kabbalah; as well a perceptions about their different development before and during early Christianity.
Gershom Scholem's book , Origin of the Kabbalah

2. re "Jewish forms of Gnosis [retained a belief in the unity of God and rejected any dualistic notions] came into being before the formation of Christianity" - do we know any more?
I will try to answer this one later.

3. I'm intrigued whether Scholem made reference to Jewish 'Messiahs' or messiah-claimants.
Both to Jewish messianic hopes and to some candidates for the title . Scholem's, The messianic idea in Judaism.

The interpretation of early documents of Gnostic literature as Gnostic Midrashim on cosmogony is interesting, as the notion that their basic Jewish character is clearly recognizable in an analysis of the teaching of Simon Magus.

semiopen
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Re: The Mishna, etc

Post by semiopen » Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:28 pm

iskander wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:00 am

1. It would be interesting to know how the concept of 'growth of Gnostic tendencies within Judaism' has been perceived or advanced in the thirty+ years since Scholem wrote Kabbalah; as well a perceptions about their different development before and during early Christianity.
Gershom Scholem's book , Origin of the Kabbalah

2. re "Jewish forms of Gnosis [retained a belief in the unity of God and rejected any dualistic notions] came into being before the formation of Christianity" - do we know any more?
I will try to answer this one later.

3. I'm intrigued whether Scholem made reference to Jewish 'Messiahs' or messiah-claimants.
Both to Jewish messianic hopes and to some candidates for the title . Scholem's, The messianic idea in Judaism.

The interpretation of early documents of Gnostic literature as Gnostic Midrashim on cosmogony is interesting, as the notion that their basic Jewish character is clearly recognizable in an analysis of the teaching of Simon Magus.
"“Subversive Catalysts: Gnosticism and Messianism in Gershom Scholem's View of Jewish Mysticism,” in The Jewish Past Revisited: Reflections by Moshe Idel

https://www.academia.edu/8693024/_Subve ... flections

is important.

Moshe_Idel
Idel has undertaken a systematic revision of the history and analysis of Jewish mysticism. His explorations of the mythical, theurgical, mystical, and messianic dimensions of Judaism have been attentive to history, sociology, and anthropology, while rejecting a naïve historicist approach to Judaism.[4] His 1988 work, Kabbalah: New Perspectives (Yale University Press), is said to have revolutionised Kabbalah studies.[5] His historical and phenomenological studies of rabbinic, philosophic, kabbalistic, and Hasidic texts have transformed the understanding of Jewish intellectual history and highlighted the close relationship between magic, mysticism, and liturgy.[4]

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MrMacSon
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Re: The Mishna, etc

Post by MrMacSon » Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:49 pm

In the Ethics of the Fathers (Pirkei Avot), we read that Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai had five distinguished disciples, whom he asked to go out and see the best way to live our lives. Rabbi Eliezer said a good eye; Rabbi Yehoshua, a good friend; Rabbi Yose, a good neighbour; Rabbi Shimon, someone who acts with foresight; and Rabbi Elazar, a good heart. Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai favoured the words of Rabbi Elazar, "for in his words, the others are included."

The language of the Mishnah is quite instructive. Rabbi Yochanan's instruction is to "go out and see." In expressing his own preference, he says "I see the words of Rabbi Elazar." Sight and foresight are the essence of Rabbi Eliezer's and Rabbi Shimon's dicta.

[with] "Go out and see" ... Rabbi Yochanan was not asking his disciples for mere bookwork, conjecture or exclusive lofty reason. They had to go out, meet people and experience the world before making their determination.

Good and right living is about people and perception, not theories or postulation from an ivory tower.

Moreover, in declaring "I see the words of Rabbi Elazar," Rabbi Yochanan acknowledges that this is his own subjective judgement call. Rabbi Yochanan is open to the possibility of diverse approaches; however, life's experience inclines him to the conclusion that a "good heart" is central to a good life.

Of course, the Torah does not give us unfettered latitude to determine right or wrong. It establishes in many places that it is dangerous to leave people unchecked to do what is right in their own eyes, to abandon themselves to excessive zeal (too much and too little compassion), to being overly trusting, or to amoral pragmatism, independent of God.

... the Torah makes demands...worship in a certain way, restrict our eating, censor our relationships, observe commemorative festivals and manage our businesses according to a strict code ...

Rabbi Yochanan's disciples were the authoritative experts on these matters in their generation. For them adherence to the Torah was axiomatic. It is implicit and must be read into their responses. Nonetheless their answers are a good heart, foresight and community awareness rather than zealous devotion, the imposition of authority, spiritual aspiration or nit-picking discrimination between what may and may not be carried on Shabbat. (It is noteworthy, of course, that the disciples nominated universal values with application to any culture and every generation.)

Rosh Hashanah is a celebration of God's dominion of our world. Yom Kippur is about our accountability. Sukkot, which follows, has the theme that our world is His world - this is symbolised by the fragile booth we erect and live in at the mercy of God in nature over the season ...

http://www.abc.net.au/religion/yom-kipp ... t/10263298

andrewcriddle
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Re: The Mishna, etc

Post by andrewcriddle » Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:17 am

MrMacSon wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:20 pm

3. I'm intrigued whether Scholem made reference to Jewish 'Messiahs' or messiah-claimants.
Both to Jewish messianic hopes and to some candidates for the title . Scholem's, The messianic idea in Judaism.


See: Scholem Sabbatai Sevi the Mystical Messiah

Andrew Criddle

semiopen
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Re: The Mishna, etc

Post by semiopen » Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:36 pm

From the Moshe Idel article mentioned above. Much of the notes below are paraphrases of Dr. Idel's words from the article.

There is no important messianic element in Jewish mysticism.

In the first phase in the development of Kabbalah (from 1180 to 1492), Kabbalah is assumed to be indifferent towards messianism.

Messianism gradually became part of the core of kabbalistic thought in the second phase. This is portrayed as part of trauma of the brutal expulsion from the Iberian Peninsula in 1492.

The second phase can be divided into three major stages:

1. 1492-1570 (until the emergence of Lurianic_Kabbalah) - Indifference
2. 1570 - 1660 (Emergence of Sabbateanism) which embodied an implicit messianism with the concept of Tikkun_olam - Synthesis
3. Featured the dissemination of Lurianic Kabbalah to the masses, the issues of Sabbateans and Frankism and the rise of Hasidic_Judaism. The Hasidic contribution was the neutralization of the deleterious consequences of Sabbateanism and Frankism by the replacement of Tikkun with Devekut. - Neutralization
...a Jewish concept referring to closeness to God. It may refer to a deep, trance-like meditative state attained during Jewish prayer, Torah study, or when performing the 613 mitzvot (the "commandments"). It is particularly associated with the Jewish mystical tradition.

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