Prophecy

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
John2
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Re: Prophecy

Post by John2 »

BDJ wrote:

"Earlier than Paul, what do you mean?"

Well, I reckon (i.e., assume) that Jewish Christians prior to Paul viewed the OT as prophesizing about Jesus. Offhand, I don't know how apparent that may be in the Letter of James, which I think is at least genuinely Jewish Christian if it's not by James (after a quick perusal it doesn't look like there is anything). But there are indications in later writings (such as the Clementine literature, which arguably incorporate earlier Jewish Christian material) that this was the case. For example:
...James began to show, that whatsoever things the prophets say they have taken from the law, and what they have spoken is in accordance with the law. He also made some statements respecting the books of the Kings, in what way, and when, and by whom they were written, and how they ought to be used. And when he had discussed most fully concerning the law, and had, by a most clear exposition, brought into light whatever things are in it concerning Christ, he showed by most abundant proofs that Jesus is the Christ, and that in Him are fulfilled all the prophecies which related to His humble advent.

Recognitions of Clement 1.69
And whether or not 1 Cor. 15:3-11 is (in whole or in part) an interpolation, as it stands it says:
...Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve ... Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles ... Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.
I also view Hegesippus as a reliable Jewish Christian source, given that what he says is in keeping with the Letter of James and Eusebius' comment that he used the Gospel of the Hebrews and "mentions other matters as taken from the unwritten tradition of the Jews" (EH 4.22), and James connects Jesus to Daniel in EH 2.23:
'Why do ye ask me concerning Jesus, the Son of Man? He himself sitteth in heaven at the right hand of the great Power, and is about to come upon the clouds of heaven.' And when many were fully convinced and gloried in the testimony of James, and said, ‘Hosanna to the Son of David,’ these same Scribes and Pharisees said again to one another, ‘We have done badly in supplying such testimony to Jesus. But let us go up and throw him down, in order that they may be afraid to believe him.’
And I think some of the Dead Sea Scrolls could have been written by proto-Jewish Christians and see James as a plausible candidate for being the Teacher of Righteousness (as Eisenman argues), about whom it is said in the Habakkuk Pesher (similar to James in the Recognitions of Clement and Hegesippus above):
...this concerns the Teacher of Righteousness, to whom God made known all the mysteries of the words of His servants the Prophets (col. 7).
They, the men of violence and the breakers of the Covenant, will not believe when they hear all that [is to happen to] the final generation from the Priest [in whose heart] God set [understanding] that he might interpret all the words of His servants the Prophets, through whom He foretold all that would happen to His people and [His land] (col. 2).
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
BDJ
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Re: Prophecy

Post by BDJ »

Indeed, you'll find that view in Paul's letters.
I think it is fair to say that there was no way the ancients could have understood prophecy - in their time - in a Christian way.
John2
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Re: Prophecy

Post by John2 »

BDJ wrote:
I think it is fair to say that there was no way the ancients could have understood prophecy - in their time - in a Christian way.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "the ancients ... in their time". Do you mean the ancients who were living in the time of the prophets? If so, then I agree and that's a nice way of putting it.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
BDJ
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Re: Prophecy

Post by BDJ »

John2 wrote:BDJ wrote:
I think it is fair to say that there was no way the ancients could have understood prophecy - in their time - in a Christian way.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "the ancients ... in their time". Do you mean the ancients who were living in the time of the prophets? If so, then I agree and that's a nice way of putting it.
That's what I meant, paraphrasing Iskander's remarks.
BDJ
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Re: Prophecy

Post by BDJ »

Re 'Earlier than Paul'. The Letter of James is dated - by most scholars -` around the end 1st/beginning 2nd century. The Clementines are from 3 rd - 4th century. Of course, you can postulate that later literature includes narratives that date from - much - earlier, but I don't see evidence for it that anything predates Paul's letters.

The Dead Sea scrolls have been scrutinised with microscopes to find references to Christian thought, but - helas - none has been found. All can be seen as belonging to a Jewish sect, and various Jewish sects had various apocalyptic narratives. One could argue that Christianity found inspiration in these Jewish messianic ideas, as presented in Daniel and the DS scrolls.
John2
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Re: Prophecy

Post by John2 »

Paul is unattested until the late first/early second century, but I assume for various reasons that his letters were (in large part) written before 70 CE. I likewise assume that the Letter of James pre-dates its earliest attestation (by Origen) and, whether it was written by James or not, or before 70 CE or not, that it is at least genuinely Jewish Christian.

Regarding the dating of the Clementine literature, most scholars think it incorporates earlier Jewish Christian material, with the only questions being how much and how early. I lean towards the idea that it includes what Epiphanius calls the Ascents of James and the Travels of Peter. As Butz puts it (citing Akers), "...virtually everything Epiphanius says about the Ebionites is duplicated in either the [Pseudo-Clementine] 'Recognitions,' the [Pseudo-Clementine] 'Homilies,' or both."

https://books.google.com/books?id=b7bnv ... rs&f=false

I do think everything in the Clementine literature is post-70 CE, but Rec. 1.69, which I cited above, at least arguably shows that post-70 CE Jewish Christians believed that James interpreted the OT to be about Jesus before Paul's conversion.

One of the reasons I think Paul and his letters pre-date 70 CE despite not being attested to until later is because of his resemblance to someone in the Dead Sea Scrolls who rejected the Torah called the Liar. Likewise I suspect that pre-70 CE Jewish Christians interpreted the OT to be about Jesus before the time of Paul in part because of 1 Cor. 15:3-11 and Rec. 1.69, and in part because of the resemblances between James and the Teacher of Righteousness in the Dead Sea Scrolls (who were both zaddiks, or Righteous Ones, said to be able to interpret the mysteries of the prophets).

Regarding references to Christian thought in the Dead Sea Scrolls, I think it depends on how you define Christian thought. For example, if we only had the Letter of James, we would not know that Jesus was crucified and resurrected, or really anything about Jesus besides a couple of references to his name and status as Christ and Lord. Other than this I assume that if Jesus was anything like James then he was pro-Torah (and so was the DSS sect), and that he was concerned with the welfare of the poor (and so was the DSS sect, who even use the word "ebionites" to describe themselves). The Letter of James is also messianic, and so was the DSS sect. And the Letter of James has a doctrine of works and faith, and so did the DSS sect. James also calls Abraham the Friend of God, and so do the DSS. If the Letter of James resembles anything, in my view it is the Dead Sea Scrolls.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
BDJ
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Re: Prophecy

Post by BDJ »

Thank you for your extensive reply. I was particularly interested in material that predates the letters of Paul, as these letters are usually considered the oldest texts in the NT.

As you indicate yourself, there is no indication in James' letter that Jesus was read into OT prophecies.
The dating, redaction and authorship of the Clementines is so complex, that we may never understand it. I find it not very strong evidence for early (1st half of 1st century) thought.

I would be interested in details of the resemblances you find between the DSS, Paul and James. There is a risk to find broad, general, similarities between texts; you can usually find similarities if you want to find them, also between texts that have no relationship.

For instance, if you say that Jesus was "concerned with the welfare of the poor (and so was the DSS sect", then I may point to Hindusim, Islam, and Communism who are also concerned with the poor. But what is their relationship with early Christianity?

I would also challenge that either the James' letter or the DSS are messianic.
John2
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Re: Prophecy

Post by John2 »

I was hoping you would engage with me on the issue of the relationship between the DSS and Christianity and I wouldn't mind seeing the idea picked apart. I'm not invested in it, it just makes sense to me.

I don't have a lot of time to respond at the moment (I was wrapping up my time at the library when I saw your above response), but in the big picture it's not so much about this or that detail, which could have various interpretations (such as concern for the poor), but all of them taken together. This concern for the poor, for example, was expressed by a sect that included gentiles and practiced "the way" and the "new covenant" in a place called Damascus that was led by a zaddik or Righteous One.

Regarding the Letter of James being messianic, since it refers to Jesus as Christ (1:1 and 2:1), I see it as messianic for that reason alone, but it also refers to "the Lord's coming" in 5:7 and 5:8 and that "the Judge is standing at the door" in 5:9 in the context of "the last days" (5:3), which seems messianic to me as well.

As for the DSS being messianic, I don't have time to support this idea right now, but I will do that when I get more time. Off the top of my head, there are several references to a singular messiah in the Damascus Document, as Chester notes here:

https://books.google.com/books?id=0YJ3n ... el&f=false
Last edited by John2 on Wed Aug 03, 2016 6:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
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Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: Prophecy

Post by John2 »

Regarding possible messianism in James 5:7 (or whether "the Lord" refers to God or Jesus here), Cheung notes (pg. 249-250):
However the word παρουσία ('coming,' 5:7) is never used in the LXX with reference to the coming of God or any divine figures. In the New Testament, the expression "coming of the Lord" becomes a technical term for the second coming of Christ ... Most scholars therefore argue that in Jas. 5:7, 8, the Lord refers to Christ ...

https://books.google.com/books?id=EKZLA ... rd&f=false
In any event, I think the reference to Elijah in 5:17 (in addition to "the last days" in 5:3) also fits a messianic context.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
BDJ
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Re: Prophecy

Post by BDJ »

I'm not sure that we can call James 'messianic". James mentions Jesus Christ by name (2x), but there is no messianic connotation in the letter. That is, Jesus is not described as King of God's kingdom, or as High priest, or redeeming anything. Hence, 'christ' functions as a name, not as identification of a messiah.

In James's letter, the 'Lord' tends to refer to God, not necessarily to Jesus. As an example, James 5 talks about Job, and how the Lord was compassionate with Job. Clearly, James is thinking of God when speaking of the Lord.

I know that many people consider the DSS to be messianic. I think this is due to this 'microscopic' reading that I referred to earlier; the DSS are mined to find any suggestion of a Christian/messianic content. But in fact, 99% of the text of the DSS is not about a messiah at all. True, the DSS contain a few references to messiah's. In those rare instances, the messiah (or messiahs) is mentioned as an indicator that the the end-time has come, and the messiah does not play a decisive role at all (e.g. as saviour, redeemer etc.). Hence, although 'anointed' figures do appear in the DSS, I would not call them messianic literature.
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