Niels P. Lemche (U. Copenhagen) wrote an essay, April, 2024 at
https://bibleinterp.arizona.edu/article ... rminus-quo
I was not persuaded.
Others?
Niels Lemche, "272 BCE – A Terminus a Quo"
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StephenGoranson
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Re: Link
Sebald Beham [1545], Hercules Carrying the Columns of Gaza:
"... the story of Samson, very easily identified as Heracles."
Do you agree w/ this, Stephen?
I am persuaded that the OT is often hellenized Semito-Phoenician myth, at the deepest level. Where it is also hellenized Semito-Egyptian myth, and Moses the Founder is Egyptian, Alexandria as a Place of Composition also makes sense. Jerusalem does not.
The destruction of the Temple of Dagan at Gaza I accept as a folkloric fact; the site has not been discovered. When and how? The consensus among historians and archaeologists places the Amos Earthquake in the mid-8th century BC, around 760-750 BC, but scant inscriptions in Phoenicia suggest Dagan worship was ending c.450 BC (Alexander the Great sacrificed to "the Most Ancient Herakles" at Tyre in 332 BC.) Likewise, Dagan was long gone in Philo's Sanchuniathon, deep lineage (c.100 BC?). If Judges was basically completed c.725 BC and the earthquake a factor, then 'Samson' was a late weaving. At any rate, the Samson substitution (over Melqart, probably) reads like a very rich, late embroidery. If Dagan had been the Creator-Father God of some Canaanites, he became a chthonic deity -- a remote deity supplanted by the Philistines' warrior cult of Herakles-Melqart c.800-400 BC. Perhaps not coincidentally, the Temple of Hercules Gaditanus, Temple of Melqart or Temple of Herakles-Melqart is thought by archeologists to have been constructed at Gades during this time, c.750 BC: ruins of one community as spoils for another. "Dagan" was effectively dead or dying by then, little more than a name recorded in Egyptian temple libraries.
However, if readers are still not satisfied then we move on to the next section of the Book of Judges: The stories about the superhero Samson. Again, we are dealing with a mythological figure and do not need to worry about historical details because there are none. Samson’s first proof of his strength is his bravery when he tears a lion apart with his own hands (Judges 14:5–6). However, in spite of his bravery and strength, he ends up being the victim of a treacherous woman when Delilah delivers him powerless to the Philistines. Samson ends his life with an act of bravado when he kills himself smashing the temple of Dagon in Gaza and crushing all the Philistines inside the temple (Judges 16:25–30).
Again, the similarity of the figure of Samson to the Greek superhero Heracles is so obvious that few will doubt a relation between them, which includes as its major elements the tearing of the lion and the contribution of a woman to the downfall of the hero.
All of this indicates that in the Book of Judges – probably in its entirety – we are safely within the sphere of Greek tradition. The biblical stories represent rewritten Greek tradition and the narrators have felt absolutely free to present their versions in a form that suited the authors’ purposes. But there can be no doubt about the origin of these stories.
Again, the similarity of the figure of Samson to the Greek superhero Heracles is so obvious that few will doubt a relation between them, which includes as its major elements the tearing of the lion and the contribution of a woman to the downfall of the hero.
All of this indicates that in the Book of Judges – probably in its entirety – we are safely within the sphere of Greek tradition. The biblical stories represent rewritten Greek tradition and the narrators have felt absolutely free to present their versions in a form that suited the authors’ purposes. But there can be no doubt about the origin of these stories.
"... the story of Samson, very easily identified as Heracles."
Do you agree w/ this, Stephen?
I am persuaded that the OT is often hellenized Semito-Phoenician myth, at the deepest level. Where it is also hellenized Semito-Egyptian myth, and Moses the Founder is Egyptian, Alexandria as a Place of Composition also makes sense. Jerusalem does not.
The destruction of the Temple of Dagan at Gaza I accept as a folkloric fact; the site has not been discovered. When and how? The consensus among historians and archaeologists places the Amos Earthquake in the mid-8th century BC, around 760-750 BC, but scant inscriptions in Phoenicia suggest Dagan worship was ending c.450 BC (Alexander the Great sacrificed to "the Most Ancient Herakles" at Tyre in 332 BC.) Likewise, Dagan was long gone in Philo's Sanchuniathon, deep lineage (c.100 BC?). If Judges was basically completed c.725 BC and the earthquake a factor, then 'Samson' was a late weaving. At any rate, the Samson substitution (over Melqart, probably) reads like a very rich, late embroidery. If Dagan had been the Creator-Father God of some Canaanites, he became a chthonic deity -- a remote deity supplanted by the Philistines' warrior cult of Herakles-Melqart c.800-400 BC. Perhaps not coincidentally, the Temple of Hercules Gaditanus, Temple of Melqart or Temple of Herakles-Melqart is thought by archeologists to have been constructed at Gades during this time, c.750 BC: ruins of one community as spoils for another. "Dagan" was effectively dead or dying by then, little more than a name recorded in Egyptian temple libraries.
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: Niels Lemche, "272 BCE – A Terminus a Quo"
I am persuaded that Lemche and Gmirkin and others have developed sound cases for a Hellenistic era origin for the Hebrew writings.StephenGoranson wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2024 5:42 am Niels P. Lemche (U. Copenhagen) wrote an essay, April, 2024 at
https://bibleinterp.arizona.edu/article ... rminus-quo
I was not persuaded.
Others?
You were asked in the comments at that site, as you have been also asked here, to provide some evidence earlier than 272 BCE:
- Yes of course, but as long as you don't provide evidence of such early dates, your argument is not worth anything. So far I haven't seen or heard anything that is different from what was brought forward against especially Philip Davies -- thirty years ago, I believe.
So please provide a piece of a scroll of, say the deuteronomistic history that can safely be from before 272 BCE.
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StephenGoranson
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Re: Niels Lemche, "272 BCE – A Terminus a Quo"
There appears to be a general trend of dating some Qumran mss earlier than previous estimates and date ranges, as I wrote before.
One recent example, in this subforum:
Palaeo-Hebrew: a new advance
by StephenGoranson » Tue Apr 23, 2024 9:03 am,
and M. Langlois on paleo-Hebrew paleography of several mss,
and 30 new c14 dates, in conjunction with paleography and AI, so far, only partly published.
Taken together, they raise a question whether it is plausible for the earliest Qumran Hebrew texts,
which are mostly penned copies of earlier mss
--not autographs--
and showing text variants,
yet as-if all supposedly originally composed all-of-a-sudden
and supposedly all composed recently(?),
can all be after 272.
PLUS: add in the times it would tale to hear about the death of Pyrrhus in 272,* plus sundry other Greek stories, convert them to Hebrew, and have that recopied.
*not from circa 100-119 ce Plutarch, centuries later, but right away, but also matching Plutarch's account.
One recent example, in this subforum:
Palaeo-Hebrew: a new advance
by StephenGoranson » Tue Apr 23, 2024 9:03 am,
and M. Langlois on paleo-Hebrew paleography of several mss,
and 30 new c14 dates, in conjunction with paleography and AI, so far, only partly published.
Taken together, they raise a question whether it is plausible for the earliest Qumran Hebrew texts,
which are mostly penned copies of earlier mss
--not autographs--
and showing text variants,
yet as-if all supposedly originally composed all-of-a-sudden
and supposedly all composed recently(?),
can all be after 272.
PLUS: add in the times it would tale to hear about the death of Pyrrhus in 272,* plus sundry other Greek stories, convert them to Hebrew, and have that recopied.
*not from circa 100-119 ce Plutarch, centuries later, but right away, but also matching Plutarch's account.
Gaza: Sorting Herakles/Samson and its Pantheon
According to Prof. Stephanie Mulder @ UT Austin, the Omari Mosque supposedly stood on the Temple of Dagan.
In the second millennium B.C., the site of the mosque is believed to have been a temple for Dagon, the Philistine god of the land and good fortune. The temple is mentioned in the Hebrew Bible as the one whose walls were felled by the warrior Samson, who is locally believed to be buried in its foundations.
The walls have obviously been felled by the IDF, in 2023.
Emek Shaveh’s Response, 12/11/2023
According to local tradition, the 5th century Byzantine church that predated the mosque was built on the site of a Philistine temple to the God Dagan.
IF this is true, we are looking for evidence of Continuity (i.e. same god, by different names) in a small pantheon of Gazan deities over millennia. Consider the evidence: history and archeology confirm that Marnas was the tutelary deity of Gaza 450 BC-450 AD. St. Porphyrios of Gaza (Marcus Diaconus, Marcus Diaconus, Vita Porphyrii episcopi Gazensis c.420 AD) has Marnas as a god of rain and grain: identical to Dagon. However, Wiki tells us that the Aramaic marnā, "Lord" (=Baal), and many scholars believe it to be a descendant version of Dagon. "Baal, Son of Dagon" should be Melqart (=-Herakles), likewise. Yet Baal Hadad is the Son of Dagon, as Dagon is the Son of Kronos and Brother of Kronos (in Philo of Byblos, 1.10.16). Perhaps the catastrophic collapse of the Temple of Dagon heralded the assertion of Melqart-Herakles (or Herakles-Israel), a deity which later proto-Jewish scribes would rename 'Samson'.
Clermont-Ganneau (1896) p.435 associated this w/ Yerid or Atliz, Atlutz {=Atlas}. Common myth has Herakles carrying off Homer's Pillars of Atlas to Cadiz, c.750 BC. To me, this suggests (presumably) the Gaza Columns were salvaged/stolen by a faction sailing from the destroyed town to found a new colony at a precise moment in time and for a specific reason.
Politically, Gazan autonomy (under the King Hanunu) collapsed in 734 BC; Sargon II installed/re-settled the Laban Tribe (Lebanese Aramaeans) in Gaza 716 BC. Logically, Cappadocian-Leucosyrian mercenaries would venerate some version of mature Melicertes-Herakles and the Young God, Adon, symbolized by a kouros holding a pomegranate. The Samson-Delilah Myth may preserve a record of this intermarriage between Northern Israelitish and Arabic tribes, and the effective defeat of Hanunu/Dagon.
In 332 BC, the cities Tyre and Gaza were allied in opposition to Alexander the Great, hence his (related) two major sieges linked in the historical account.
Recalling Hellenic Triton/Nereus to DAGON and OANNES of Phoenician and Babylonian mythology is also valid, viz., in myth relating Herakles to Nereus.
It may well be that Mark Smith [2016], p.88 has unknowingly identified the Sphinx riddle in Three 'Ages of Baal': Baal Shamin (Elder), Baal Malange (=Herakles, the Sailor; Mature) and Baal Zephon (= Horus of Kasios; Youth). There is also clear evidence of The Young God's worship at Gaza. Recalling the port of Maioumas, a comment by 6th-century scholar John Malalas is curious: "the Mysteries of Dionysus and Aphrodite...is known as the Maioumas because it is celebrated in the month of May-Artemisios." Dionysus/Adonis is the Young God, obviously. Certain from Roman coinage c.125 AD, the Young God of Gaza was called 'Minos' (=Zeus Velchanos/-Kretagenetas); the so-called 'Zeus of Kasios' was likewise this Young God (~Hor-Apollo). I wonder if it's the same 'Temple of Apollo' mentioned in Josephus, Antiquities 13.13.4. I suppose that deity was Herakles-Sampson {Herakles-Reshef}; Josephus would have mentioned "Helios" otherwise.
Marcus Aurelius and Lucius Verus, coin from Gaza 168 AD, Hor-Apollo/Minos offering libation:
See Marcus Diaconus, Vita Porphyrii 64:
καὶ γὰρ ἦσαν ἐν τῇ πόλει εἰδωλεῖα τὰ πάντα ὀκτώ, τοῦ τε Ἡλίου καὶ τῆς Ἀφροδίτης καὶ τοῦ Ἀπόλλωνος καὶ τῆς Κόρης καὶ τῆς Ἑκάτης καὶ τὸ λεγόμενον Ἡραῖον ἤτοι Τύχαιον, καὶ τὸ Μαρνεῖον καὶ τὸ Μαρνίον· καὶ ἦσαν ἔξω τῆς πόλεως δύο τόποι τριῶν δαιμόνων, ὑπόνομοι τοῖς ἐκεῖ εὑρισκομένοις δαίμοσι.
For there were in the city {of Gaza, c.410 AD} eight idol-temples in all: of Helios, of Aphrodite, of Apollo, of Kore, of Hecate, and the one called Heraion/Heroon or Tychaion {Hera or Tyche}, and the large Marneion and secondary shrine of Marnas. And outside the city, there were two places of three daemons, haunts of daemons found locally.
For there were in the city {of Gaza, c.410 AD} eight idol-temples in all: of Helios, of Aphrodite, of Apollo, of Kore, of Hecate, and the one called Heraion/Heroon or Tychaion {Hera or Tyche}, and the large Marneion and secondary shrine of Marnas. And outside the city, there were two places of three daemons, haunts of daemons found locally.
The Ashtoreth (Female Deities) are somewhat less certain; 'Delilah' (=Philistine Mystery Goddess) is either 'Aphrodite' or 'Kore': which Whore?
From St. Porphyrios (c.420 AD), it seems Gaza had two (2) Apollo-Type Temples and two (2) Aphrodite-Type Temples, in addition to the two (2) Marnas/Baal Temples.
1. (Aion) Helios NOT Apollo ....... Minos (Founder of Gaza) = The Sun-God: Zeus-Minos = Zeus Velchanos/-Kretagenetas = The Young God.* {Herakles-Khonsu/ -Shu}
2. Aphrodite ................ Aphrodite & Adon (Eshmun); & Dionysos Eiraphiotes (Dionysus-Osiris?); Asherah = Jezzabel?
3. Apollo .................... Resheph-Mukol = Apollo-Amuklos >>Archangel Michael? ; Apollon Kyrios. Herakles-Sampson {Herakles-Reshef}
4. Kore ...................... Anat = Aphrodite Morpho/Derketo = Atargatis; Allat; Britomartis (Artemis) = Astarte? Isis = Neith-Athena
5. Hecate ................... Lilith; Kybele/Attis
6. Hera/Tyche .............. Asherah ; Astarte; lo=Isis; Pluto's (Dis Pater) consort was Io = Ashtoreth.
8. Marnas 1 ................. Site of Major Statue, Primary Temple of Gaza; Dagon/Atlas
7. Marnas 2 ................. Site of ancient chapel (ruins of Dagon Temple)? Zeus Aldemios
* The Young God as MINOS is otherwise/elsewhere Iolaos (Herakles' Young Companion, He-Who-Resurrects-the-God) = Eshmun/Adonis or Eshmun/Shulman (Hauronas= Little Horon) = Hadadrimmon (i.e. Baal Rimmon) = 'Zeus (Horus) of Kasios' = Zeus Velchanos/Zeus Kretagenetas = Hor-Apollo.
Also, I would be curious to know how the Egyptians identified the Gaza gods.
Possible God(s) @ Gaza, named:
(Baal-)Dagan = Dagan/Yam? ...................................................... Elder {MARNAS}
Jacob-Baal = Herakles-Israel ; Samson = ........................................ Mature
(Adonai-)Baal = Tammuz/Adonis = Zeus Velchanos/-Kretagenetas .......... Younger {MINOS}
The following timeline may not be accurate, but suggests WHEN the different names prevailed:
1000 BC ... Baal-Dagan & Baal the Wrestler, (c.1300 BC)
800 BC .... Dagan & Baal-Melqart ; Jacob-Baal ? {Jerubbaal = Israel: the One who Struggles w/ God}
600 BC .... {Dagon - ?} & (Melqart-) Herakles-Israel = Palaemon
450 BC .... {Dagon=} Marnas & Herakles-Israel = Samson?
The discovery of the Marnas colossus in 1879 is quite a story. The statue is probably dated c.135 AD, Roman Period. In this presumably ichthymorphic statue, the 'Herakles' torso is missing its fish-tail, confirming this is Dagon:
John Peter Lange, A Commentary on the Holy Scriptures: Samuel [1877], p.106:
Compare Kimchi's reference to an old tradition: "It is said, that Dagon had the form of a fish from the navel down, and was therefore called Dagon, and the form of a man from the navel up." Comp. J.G. Müller in Herzog, R.E. III. 255 sq. Thenius and Keil recognize this personage in a figure found by Layard at Khorsabad, the upper part of whose body represents a bearded man, adorned with a royal crown, the lower part of the body from the navel on running into the form of a fish bent backwards; that this is a marine deity is beyond doubt, since he is swimming in the sea and surrounded by all sorts of sea-beasts (Layard, Nineve und seine Ueberreste, Germ. ed. of Meissner, p.424 sq. [Nineveh and its remains]).
The Child Hero Melicertes-Palaemon
Further study warranted: Kaiwan, Kiyyûn = Rephan/Saturn /Chiun = Sikkût-Ninurta/Sakkuth = Herakles/Saturn?
Herakles is Son of God (Zeus), this level of savior-god corresponds to (the son of) Zeus Demarus/Baal-Tamar ; Melqart-Herakles son of Baal de Sor. Reshef Mikal or Melqart-Herakles (Taaut-Herakles) in Phoenicia? The Phoenicio-Egyptian form was 'Herakles Khonsu' or even 'Herakles Chons Shu Thoth'. (Cf. Recueil, [1906] p.181 f.) Egyptians of the Western Desert (Siwa) knew Herakles as Hry shef, 'Lord of the Desert' and 'Defender of Boundaries', depicted like Kneph (= Yahu) as as a ram-headed figure.
Johann Jakob Herzog et al, The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge ..., Vol. 10 [1911], p.198:
'Melcathrus' is evidently Melcarth-Herakles. 'Muth' (Semitic for ‘death’) is punned upon. 'Adodos' is Hadad, but Aramaic rather than Phoenician.
F.C. Movers, Das Phönizier [1841], p.556:
The Aion, phonetic XXX, was worshipped in conjunction with the XXX or the First born. Therefore both are mentioned together in Sanchoniathon (p. 16.), the Phoenician Ophion next to Saturn is called Phanes (1. o. p. 109.); Herakles as a Time-god was combined with Phanes, the Kosmos was represented as winged (see above p.59.), Herakles and Saturn with Taaut/Hermes, or also Bel and Amun with Kneph and Surmubel, finally Elyon and Adonis-Osiris are brought into conjunction with Aion. Thereby the idea arose of a god who united the double character of a kind and terrible being in himself, as Damascius describes him (with Photius, l.c.), and according to this one may then judge, whether the other name of Phanes-Erikapaeus does not correspond exactly to the usual Old Testament name of God XXX Erekapaim, 'the long-tired one'.
A most excellent recent PhD level talk on Herakles' origins: