Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

clive wrote:Thought I would look at some key texts and after getting out of print messages and silly prices from an infamous organisation found it!

I fail to see how this is better than "Good Bye Mohammed":

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=234

…or just reading the Mohammed legend:

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=250

Gibson also talks about it:

http://searchformecca.com/mecca.html

Gibson discovered that when discussing early Islamic history with Muslim scholars that as soon as one mentioned Dr. Crone, the conversation immediately focuses on the “Hagarism” theory, often with bitter comments and angry reactions, and it became impossible for them to address the thoughts presented in her later works.

http://nabataea.net/MeccaProblems.html

To begin with, it's not clear how the prophet mentioned in Doctrina Iacobi is the same as the Mohammed mentioned in the legend attributed to Ibn Ishaq. So how do you know they're the same?

Or let's put it this way: why is Doctrina Iacobi mentioned to begin with? What is the supposed importance of Doctrina Iacobi?

Another question: why is it assumed that Umar existed?

"It is cast in the form of a dialogue between Jews set in Carthage in the year 634; it was in all probability written in Palestine within a few years of that date."

Beware of scholars positing that texts were written close to the date internal to the text. "In all probability" is a loose, duplicitous term deployed to make a theory sound more grounded in reality than it actually is.

clive wrote:And on balance of evidence, why not go with him being alive eight years after his death, especially as there are theological reasons for saying the death is earlier?

What are the sources for Umar's existence?

clive wrote:I am beginning to realise why I love the book Hagarism. It is in the tradition of the Golden Bough.

We have become too, ooh, don't know about that. Actually some grand theory is actually very valuable!

Can you please explain for beginners who or what a "hagar" is?

"Hagar (/heɪˈɡɑr/ hay-gar; Hebrew: הָגָר, Modern Hagar Tiberian Hāgār, meaning "uncertain";[1] Arabic: هاجر‎ Hājar; Greek: Ἄγαρ Agar; Latin: Agar) is a biblical person in the Book of Genesis Chapter 16. She was an Egyptian handmaid of Sarai (Sarah),[1] who gave her to Abram (Abraham) to bear a child. Thus came the firstborn, Ishmael, the patriarch of the Ishmaelites. The name Hagar originates from the Book of Genesis, is mentioned in Hadith, and alluded to in the Qur'an. She is revered in the Islamic faith and acknowledged in all Abrahamic faiths. In mainstream Christianity, she is considered a concubine to Abram.[1]"

Wiki

Very briefly, Hagarism is the idea that for the first couple of hundred years Islam was not fully formed, and its current image was created in Babylon at least a 100 years later, with very strong Judaic scholastic influences.

You mention the first two centuries. What role do you think the Ummayads played in that?