Bolland's explanation about why not even the Samaritan false prophet slain by Pilate could be the "historical Jesus"

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Post Reply
User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 13931
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Bolland's explanation about why not even the Samaritan false prophet slain by Pilate could be the "historical Jesus"

Post by Giuseppe »

The risk in doing cherry-picking is very not reading the entire paragraph from which one quotes only a part.

My case is exemplar. I had read the following Bolland's quote just before the part in bold, so falling automatically victim of the false idea that Bolland was a historicist (identifying the Samaritan Impostor slain by Pilate with the historical Jesus). At contrary, if you read also the part in bold, then you realize that Bolland is giving in the same larger paragraph the reason why he can't infer a such conclusion:


In den heelen Juda(s) vermogen wij niets anders te zien dan eene legendaire persoonsverbeelding van het volk der Joden zelf, waarbij het dan van zelf de vraag wordt vanwaar de smet het eerst kan zijn geworpen. En Jēsoùs < Jēsjû < Jēsjûa' < Jehôsjûa' Jehosua, Jozua; Jozua nu is de groote legendaire figuur geweest waaraan Ephrájim, Israel, Samarië zich de vernietiging zijner oude vijanden in het door Jaho aangewezene land te binnen bracht. Volgens oude lezing, in Joh. 1:46 en 6:42 bewaard, is Jezus een zoon van Joseph; Joseph nu kan in het algemeen voor Jakob, Israel, Samarië staan, gelijk te zien is aan het parallele “Juda - Jozef” van Hez. 37:16, en ook betuigd wordt door Josephus, volgens wien de Samaritanen zich gaarne “zonen van Jozef” noemden. (J. Oudh. 11:8, 6). Dat deze zonen van Joseph in 35 op hun heiligen berg, waar zij zich onder een dweepzieken leider vereenigd hadden, op bevel van Pontius Pilatus om het leven zijn gebracht, weten wij van Josephus (J. Oudh. 18:4, 1-2) en dat “Juda” net de man was om zich over het afslachten van den “zoon van Jozef” te verheugen, weten wij ook. Bedenken wij nog dat een kruisdood van Jezus niet voorkomt bij Philo, Josephus, in echte oude Sanhedrinberichten, in de Openbaring (11:8 is geïnterpoleerd), in den brief aan de Romeinen en den Jakobusbrief, de Leer der Apostelen en den Herder van Hermas, dat de Joodsche “vijandige mensch” van Recogn. 1:70-71 den tooveraar Simon náást de apostelen stelt en de ook in den Thalmûd bekende Samaritaansche volkman Theudas (45) volgens Clemens Alexandrinus een bekende van Paulus is geweest (Strom. 7:17, 107), dan mogen wij ons wel afvragen of mogelijk niet de door Juda aan Pilatus verraden “Jēsjû bar José” eene Messiaansche hulpe Jaho's uit Samarië is geweest, die door de ondankbare Joden is versmaad, verloochend en in den steek gelaten. Wij staren hier weder op nevelen, raadselachtig, en eenen uitweg naar de “Galileesche” traditie zien wij hier niet, maar een feit is het dat in het begin der tweede eeuw de realiteit van Jezus' menschelijkheid en kruisdood door onjoodsche Christianoi (Chrestianoi?) is geloochend. En opmerkelijk is het, dat de Christenen door de schrijvers van den Thalmûd velerwege Kūthîm, d.i. Samaritanen worden genoemd, en dat, wanneer de Koetheeën gezegd worden de verijdelaars van den herbouw des in 70 verwoesten Tempels te zijn geweest, volgens de Joodsche overlevering de Christenen bedoeld zijn. Heeft ook niet naar de overlevering der Christenen Simon de Tooveraar uit Samarië lang vóór de “Apostelen” tot in Rome geleeraard?

Overigens is ook die Simon niet gevrijwaard voor vervluchtiging tot eene persoonsverbeelding. Zijn naam doet denken aan “Spinô,” d.i. een met labialen eindklinker uitgesproken “Sjimâ,” wat niets is dan Samarisch Arameesch voor het Samarisch Pentateuchische “a-Sjîm,” de Naam, in het Hebreesch der Joden “ha-Sjêm”. Het zoude dus niet een verhaspeld substituut voor Jhwh kunnen wezen, dat wij hier in “Sjim'ôn” te doen hebben, want reeds in Lev. 24:11 vervangt “ha-Sjêm,” “a-Sjîm,” “Sjimâ” het onuitsprekelijk Tetragrammaton of Vierletterwoord, in Mt. 26:64 en Mk. 14:62 staat in denzelfden zin “de Kracht” (“de groote Kracht”: Openb, 11:17), en in Hd. 8:10 heet Sjim'ôn (Sjimô?) bij zijne vereerders, “de groote Kracht Gods.” Voeg hierbij, dat bij Justijn “de eerste gedachte” Gods tot eene Simon begeleidende Helena (Selene?) wordt gemaakt, - eene dédoublure, die aan de Rabbijnsche Meemrâ herinnert. De belichaming van den Philonischen Logos, den Alexandrijnschen variant dier Mēmrâ of scheppingsgedachte, in een van den Vader uitgeganen (Joh. 16:28) man Jezus zoude wel eens van de door Justijn allicht verkeerd verstane beeldspraak eener van Sjimô uitgegane “eerste gedachte” Helena (Licht? Vgl. Gen. 1:3) de orthodox gewordene parallel kunnen zijn. Is echter de hellenizeerende Gnoses met haar doketisme, haar idealisme, hare loochening eener reëel lichamelijke Jezuspersoonlijkheid aan de “rechtgeloovige” realisten voorafgegaan, van waar dan de specieel Galileesche legende, het Joodsch Messianisme dat de Oudchristelijke letteren beheerscht, en de “christelijkheid” zelve der judaïzeerende Ebionieten?

https://www.dbnl.org/tekst/_twe00218960 ... 48.php#243


Translation via Deepl:

In all Judah(s) we can see nothing but a legendary personification of the people of the Jews themselves, whereby it is of itself the question from where the stain can have been cast first. And Jēsoùs < Jēsjû < Jēsjûa' < Jehôsjûa' Jehosua, Joshua; Joshua has been the great legendary figure to whom Ephrájim, Israel, Samaria remembered the destruction of its old enemies in the land indicated by Jaho. According to an old reading, preserved in John 1:46 and 6:42, Jesus is a son of Joseph; now Joseph can generally stand for Jacob, Israel, Samaria, as can be seen in the parallel "Judah - Joseph" of Hash. 37:16, and also stated by Josephus, according to whom the Samaritans were pleased to call themselves "sons of Joseph". (J. Oudh. 11:8, 6). That these sons of Joseph were killed in 35 on their holy mountain, where they had gathered under a zealous leader, we know from Josephus (J. Oldh. 18:4, 1-2) and that "Judah" was just the man to rejoice over the slaughter of the "son of Joseph", we also know. We should also remember that the death on the cross of Jesus is not mentioned by Philo, Josephus, in the ancient Sanhedrin reports, in Revelation (11:8 has been interpolated), in the letter to the Romans and the letter to James, in the teachings of the Apostles and the shepherd of Hermas, that the Jewish "enemy man" of Recogn. 1:70-71 puts the sorcerer Simon next to the apostles and the Samaritan man Theudas (45), also known in Thalmûd, was, according to Clemens Alexandrinus, an acquaintance of Paul (Strom. 7:17, 107), then we may well ask ourselves whether the "Jēsjû bar José", betrayed by Judah to Pilate, might not have been a Messianic helper from Samaria, despised, denied and abandoned by the ungrateful Jews. Here we are again staring into a mist, a mystery, and we do not see a way out in the "Galilean" tradition, but it is a fact that at the beginning of the second century the reality of Jesus' humanity and death on the cross was denied by Gentile Christianoi (Chrestianoi?). And remarkable is it, that the Christians are often called Kūthîm, i.e. Samaritans, by the writers of the Thalmûd, and that, when the Kutheans are said to have been the thwarters of the rebuilding of the Temple that was destroyed in 70, according to the Jewish tradition are meant the Christians. Isn't it true that according to Christian tradition, Simon the Sorcerer from Samaria taught in Rome long before the "Apostles"?

However, even Simon is not immune to becoming a figment of the imagination. His name is reminiscent of "Spinô," i.e. a "Shimâ" pronounced with a labial final vowel, which is nothing but Samaric Aramaic for the Samaric Pentateuchic "a-Shem," the Name, in Hebrew of the Jews "ha-Shem. So it could not be a confused substitute for Yhwh that we are dealing with here in "Shim'ôn", because already in Lev. 24:11 "ha-Shem," "a-Shem," "Shimâ" replaces the unpronounceable Tetragrammaton or four letter word, in Mt. 26:64 and Mk. 14:62 is in the same sense "the Power" ("the great Power": Rev. 11:17), and in Rev. 8:10 Shim'ôn (Shimô?) is called by his worshippers, "the great Power of God." Add to this, that with Justine "the first thought" of God is made a Simon accompanying Helena (Selene?), - a dédoublure, which reminds one of the Rabbinical Meemrâ. The embodiment of the Philonian Logos, the Alexandrian variant of the Mēmrâ or idea of creation, in a man Jesus emanating from the Father (John 16:28) may well be the orthodox parallel of the imagery of a "first thought" Helena (Light? Cf. Gen. 1:3), which Justine probably misunderstood. Did, however, the Hellenizing Gnoses with its doeticism, its idealism, its denial of a real bodily Jesus personality precede the "right-believing" realists, from where then came the specious Galilean legend, the Jewish Messianism that dominates Old-Christian literature, and the "Christianity" itself of the judaizing Ebionites?


The great Bolland's lesson:

Far from being the reasons for an identification of the historical Jesus with the Samaritan impostor, the deliberate parallelisms really deny it, since they are meant to persuade the docetists that Jesus suffered really in the flesh, by playing entirely the role of the suffering Messiah ben Joseph.
User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 13931
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Bolland's explanation about why not even the Samaritan false prophet slain by Pilate could be the "historical Jesus"

Post by Giuseppe »

Note also that Bolland mentions the Jewish denigration of the Christians as "Samaritans".

This doesn't prove that the Samaritan Impostor was the historical Jesus, or that the early Christians were really Samaritans.

This proves that before the Jews denigrated the Christians as "Samaritans", and after the Judaizers denigrated the Docetists as "Samaritans".
User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 13931
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Bolland's explanation about why not even the Samaritan false prophet slain by Pilate could be the "historical Jesus"

Post by Giuseppe »

Note also the explanatory power of the Bolland's explanation behind the introduction of Pilate:
  • by reducing Jesus to the Messiah son of Joseph thanks also to Pilate, his real suffering is remarked, pace the docetists;
  • by reducing Jesus to a Samaritan (since he is "son of Joseph"), it is explained why historically the Jews denigrated the early Christians (and Jesus himself) as 'Samaritans'.
Hegesippus is evidence of the last point: his complete lie was that the 'real' Samaritans were the Marcionites and Simonians, not the other Christians:

In clear counter-position to Marcion, whose message he sees as a kind of Samaritan rejection of the Jews and their temple, Hegesippus reconnects the Church’s beginnings firmly with Jerusalem and the Temple

(Markus Vinzent, Christ’s resurrection in Early Christianity and the Making of the New Testament, Ashgate 2011, p. 100, my bold)
User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 13931
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Bolland's explanation about why not even the Samaritan false prophet slain by Pilate could be the "historical Jesus"

Post by Giuseppe »

There would be also the possibility that the same anti-Christian Jews did the accusation:
you are a mere "son of Joseph" (=a Samaritan), therefore you have been probably crucified by Pilate. He (Pilate) is the judge you deserve.

The Judaizers would have used that anti-Christian accusation in what it was useful for them, against their rival Docetists: the final recognition of the reality of the suffering of Jesus on the cross.

Obviously they had only to mitigate the paternity of 'Joseph': the holy spirit would have helped.
User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 13931
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Bolland's explanation about why not even the Samaritan false prophet slain by Pilate could be the "historical Jesus"

Post by Giuseppe »

Now the problem is that, if really the Jews attacked Jesus as a miserable 'son of Joseph', then why in the Talmud is not this mentioned?

Really, Sandrick Le Maguer has proved beyond any doubt that "Jesus ben Panthera" means "Jesus son of Joseph".

Giuseppe wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:22 am Now, it is interesting that

The Toledot Yeschu are first and foremost an attempt to understand the Gospels through the midrashic way. The polemic is still present there but is still based on the biblical text.

(p. 224, my translation)

For example, Panthera rapes twice Myriam. Why twice? Because "Joseph" means "to add".
However, a difficulty is in the fact that, if the premise is recognized (= Jesus is a mere miserable "son of Joseph/Panthera"), the implication is not (=Jesus is not crucified by Pilate according to the Talmud).

Hence, it is more probable that the implication has been made firstly by the Judaizers who introduced Pilate in the holy fable.
User avatar
arnoldo
Posts: 969
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:10 pm
Location: Latin America

Re: Bolland's explanation about why not even the Samaritan false prophet slain by Pilate could be the "historical Jesus"

Post by arnoldo »

In a nutshell, Detering succinctly summarizes Bolland's hypothesis in the following article (excerpt below).
Christianity essentially started in the first century among thoroughly syncretic Hellenised Jews in Alexandria. Gnosticising and Hermetic concepts are sensible. The Gospel according to the Egyptians, mentioned in patristic heresiologies, is from those theosophical circles. It could be dated in the decades following the temple fall. Said gospel was a popularising metaphorical representation of gnostic concepts: A salvific mystery around a mythical Chrestos. It was in no way connected to a nationalist Messiah figure. . .
http://www.egodeath.com/DeteringSummaryOfBolland.htm

Secret Alias
Posts: 18922
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Bolland's explanation about why not even the Samaritan false prophet slain by Pilate could be the "historical Jesus"

Post by Secret Alias »

Sandrick Le Maguer has proved beyond any doubt that "Jesus ben Panthera" means "Jesus son of Joseph".
What kind of fucking hyperbole is this? Do you just assume that no one is paying attention so you can write anything. No. Nothing could possibly rise to the level of 'proof' here.
User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 13931
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Bolland's explanation about why not even the Samaritan false prophet slain by Pilate could be the "historical Jesus"

Post by Giuseppe »

Secret Alias wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:19 am
Sandrick Le Maguer has proved beyond any doubt that "Jesus ben Panthera" means "Jesus son of Joseph".
What kind of fucking hyperbole is this? Do you just assume that no one is paying attention so you can write anything. No. Nothing could possibly rise to the level of 'proof' here.
LeMaguer has found that the Aramaic word "panteri" is the translation of the Hebrew word yaspé, a word resembling closely yosseph .

So Joseph is named the bloodstone.

Therefore the Argument from Extreme Improbability of a Coincidence proves that
Panthera==Joseph.
Post Reply