For Justin, Jesus preached only AFTER the resurrection

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Giuseppe
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For Justin, Jesus preached only AFTER the resurrection

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For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

(1 Apology 67)
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm

There is a curious parallelism with the incipit of the Evangelion, here: there also the preaching started only after Jesus visited Capernaum, "Capernaum" being allegory of the Hades (per Heracleon).
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Giuseppe
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Re: For Justin, Jesus preached only AFTER the resurrection

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Note how Andrè Wautier has removed from his reconstruction of the Evangelion the reference to the "synagogue" in Capernaum: for in the Hades there are not Synagogues.

In addition, "Jesus appeared in Capernaum" has a different sense when compared to "Jesus descended in Capernaum".
MrMacSon wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:14 pm
neilgodfrey wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:08 pm I have translated Wautier's reconstruction of Marcion's Gospel. Attached here for anyone interested : Wautier - Reconstruction.pdf
The start compared to Klinghardt's reconstruction in English (in Klinghardt's 2018 monograph, The Oldest Gospel, Quiet Waters Publications)

Wautier
Klinghard
The fifteen year of Tiberius' principate .....................In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius
Christ descended from Heaven, appeared in Capernaum [Jesus] went down to Capharnaum, a city in Galilee [at the sea in the territory of Zebulon and Naphtali]
Having taken on the appearance of a man,
he appeared 30 years old
[it'd be interesting to know if that means, 'he appeared at 30 yrs of age',
or, 'he appeared to be 30 yrs of age']
Cain and those who were with him ran to him, the sodomites, the Egyptian & others, all others, all those who had been guilty of indignities, Christ saved them
a.a.a.a.a.a..........................................And he taught them on the Sabbath days.
All were struck by his teaching ~ because his Word had powerAnd all were astonished at his teaching because he spoke with authority.

but a demon called out to him
And in the synagogue was a man who had the spirit of an unclean demon, and he cried out in a loud voice
'What have you to do with us, Jesus? You have come to lose us. 'I know who you are, the Holy One of God' 'What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazara? Have you come to destroy us? 'I know who you are, the Holy One of God'
Christ rebuked him: "Get behind me, Satan"Jesus rebuked him: "Be silent and come out of him"
And the demon threw him into the center and came out of him screaming, but he did not hurt him. And great fright came over them all, and they spoke among themselves, saying, “What kind of speech is this? For the authority and the power he commands the unclean spirits so that they come out” And the report about him spread to every place in the region
Ascended to Bethsaida.
Christ did not preach anything new there
But when he came to Nazara, he went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day. and they said, 'Is not this Joseph's son?'
Then people opposed him [with] the saying ...And he said to them, "Now you will indubitably quote this proverb to me.
'Physician, heal thyself''Physician, heal thyself!' "
However demons came out of the sick on whom he laid his hands shouting, 'You are the Son of God.''Everything that we have heard happen[ed] in Capharnaum, do also here in your hometown!'
But they were rebuked and ordered to be silent.but He said, "Truly, I say to you, no prophet is accepted in his homeotown."
Then all the synagogue was filled with anger
Christ went to the desert and was held back by the crowd and they got up and thrust Him out of the city, and they led Him to the slope of the mountain on which their city was built to hurl him down.
But passing through them, he escapedBut he passed right through their midst and went away
He said, "I must preach the kingdom of God to other towns in the kingdom of God"
And he left Nazara and went and lived in Capharnaum by the sea, in the territory of Zebulon and Naphtali.
Near a lake, he called fishermen
He led them into deep water and they made a prodigious catch
Then he said to Simon, who had fallen to his knees
"Do not be afraid. From now on you will take men."
As the sun was setting, everyone brought the sick people with various ailments to him, as many as they had.
But on each of them He laid the hands and healed them.
Christ then heals a leper with a word.
He bowed down but Christ commanded him
"Go show yourself to the priest and make the offering that Moses prescribed, so that this may serve as a testimony"
He also healed a paralytic
"Get up, He said to him, "and take your mat with you"
But demons came out of many
They cried out, 'You are the Son of God'
and He berated them and did not let them speak.

For they knew that he was the Christ
.
the disciples of Christ were compared to those of John, who fasted and prayed
And He said,

"the physician is needed not by the healthy but by the sick.

"One does not sew a piece of new clothing to any old one.

"Neither do we put new wine into old wineskins, otherwise the skins will break and the wine is spilled. But new wine is put in new skins, and both are preserved."
.
But when day came, he left and went to a secluded place. And the crowd was looking for Him, and they firmly held onto Him so that he would not depart from them.
But he said to them,
"It is necessary that I proclaim the kingdom of God also in the other cities,
for that is why I am sent."
And he preached in the synagogues of Galilee
One Sabath day, Christ having healed a man whose hand had withered, the Pharisees took offence.
Christ asked them,
"Is it permitted, yes or no, on the Sabbath day to do good or to save souls?"
But it happened that the crowd pressed up on him and heard the Word of God
And when he was standing at Lake Gennesaret, he was two boats lying by the lake. The fishermen had gotten out of them and washed their nets.
He entered into one of the boats that belonged to Simon and asked him to put out a little from the short. He sat down in the boat and taught the crowds.
One evening Christ went up a mountain
and he spend the night in prayer, which his Father heard
Then he elected twelve of his disciples
and changed the name of Simon to Peter
Going down with them, he met a crowd on the shores of Tyre and other cities, even from the seas, and everyone in that crowd tried to touch him.
Then Christ looked at them and said,

"Blessed are you the beggars, for the kingdom of God is yours,
"Blessed are the hungry, for they shall be filled.
"Blessed are those who weep, for they shall laugh.
"Blessed will you be when men hate you, insult you, and curse your name, because they are guilty,

"because of the Son of Man.

"For this is how your fathers treated the prophets.

"But woe to you, the rich, for you have already received your consolation.

"Woe to you who are full, for you will be hungry;

"To you who laugh, for you will weep.

"Woe to you when men praise you,
for their fathers did the same to the false prophets.

and I say to you who hear me, love your enemies, bless those who hate you and pray for those who slander you.

"Do not ask an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.
but when they hit you on the cheek, turn the other cheek,

"And if your coat is taken from you, offer your robe also.

[etc] ..."
.

We need a Marcion Seminar
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Giuseppe
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Re: For Justin, Jesus preached only AFTER the resurrection

Post by Giuseppe »

A strong indication supporting Wautier's point (that Chrestos descended in Hades in the incipit of Marcion, not in Galilee), is that Cyril of Jerusalem (Catecheses 19:19) put on the mouth of the demons in Hades the words addressed by the Baptist to Jesus: are you who has to come or should we expect another?

Unfortunately, I have not found the precise quote of Cyril.
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arnoldo
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Re: For Justin, Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate.

Post by arnoldo »

Giuseppe wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 1:28 pm
For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

(1 Apology 67)
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm.
Justin also wrote the following
Our teacher of these things is Jesus Christ, who also was born for this purpose, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judæa, in the times of Tiberius Cæsar;
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm

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Giuseppe
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Re: For Justin, Jesus preached only AFTER the resurrection

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Justin couldn't have written about a Jesus preaching a lot of things AFTER the resurrection, if he hadn't been based on a previous narrative (the Evangelion of Marcion) where Jesus did precisely only that: a preaching after the ascent from Hades (='Capernaum') to earth.
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arnoldo
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1 Peter 3:18-20

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Giuseppe
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Re: For Justin, Jesus preached only AFTER the resurrection

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It doesn't change my argument: if 'Capernaum' is codeword for Hades (docet Heracleon), then the Marcion's Jesus descended in Hades and only so it is explained why the descent is followed shortly after by an ascent to Bethsaida, i.e. on the earth.


The fifteen year of Tiberius' principate
Christ descended from Heaven, appeared in Capernaum
Having taken on the appearance of a man,
he appeared 30 years old
Cain and those who were with him ran to him, the sodomites, the Egyptian & others, all others, all those who had been guilty of indignities, Christ saved them
All were struck by his teaching ~ because his Word had power
but a demon called out to him
What have you to do with us, Jesus? You have come to lose us. 'I know who you are, the Holy One of God'
Christ rebuked him: "Get behind me, Satan"
Ascended to Bethsaida.

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