Primacy of Marcion and implications for historicity

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Paul the Uncertain
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Re: Primacy of Marcion and implications for historicity

Post by Paul the Uncertain »

You keep mentioning Carrier. I don't really know why. He is not writing a history about Jesus or Christian origins. He is exploring a hypothesis. That's quite different from what we normally think of when we speak of narrative or analytical history.
Perhaps because Carrier does something interesting here. Of course, he doesn't "explore a hypothesis," but rather (as is mathematically inevitable when using subjective probablity, trivial details on request) he compares the plausibility of plural hypotheses to one another. In particular, he projects the space of seriously possible accounts of Christian origns down to two incompatible hypotheses, which he acknowledges are not collectively exhaustive.

That's interesting because it is isomorphic to what arch-anti-Bayesian Karl Popper imagined to be the epitome of admirable inference - the head-to-head crucial test between two hypotheses to achieve "eliminative induction." Popper thinks that this is typical of empirical natural science at its best, and I think he has some support from history for that view. At least it seems that elite scientists have sometimes used the technique.

Carrier does seem to lose track of what he's done. Popper is right to say that the outcome can only show that the loser isn't the most credible or "best" hypothesis available. It cannot establish that the winner is anything better than not the worst seriously possible hypothesis. This is true regardless of the margin of victory: 12 to 1, 1200 to 1, 12000 to 1 ... knock yourself out, the only justified conclusion - the only conclusion justified by Bayes - is that there's something worse than Doherty-Carrier (and even then, that's in the opinion of Carrier, your mileage may differ).

Fine. Carrier is not my first choice to serve as Bayes's Apostle to the Historians. If in addition he is also unsuited for the role because he's addressing different questions than historians do, then of course it can be no mystery that he uses different methods. There is no reason to expect Carrier to adopt methods specifically designed for a different set of questions than the questions he wants to pursue.

Butz's law: you don't play the game, you don't make the rules. If historians pursue some well-posed questions and not others about the human past, then they have no privileged say in how other investigators pursue the questions that the historians don't or won't.
schillingklaus
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Re: Primacy of Marcion and implications for historicity

Post by schillingklaus »

Popper cannot hold the dimmest candle to Feyerabend.

Reverend Bayes was an apologist.
Paul the Uncertain
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Re: Primacy of Marcion and implications for historicity

Post by Paul the Uncertain »

schillingklaus wrote: Sun Mar 13, 2022 4:26 am Popper cannot hold the dimmest candle to Feyerabend.

Reverend Bayes was an apologist.
I am no fan of Popper, but matters of agreement between determined antagonists are inherently interesting, IMO.

I am unsure what you mean about Bayes. He was indeed a (nonconformist) cleric, but apart from that, I don't know where you're headed.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Primacy of Marcion and implications for historicity

Post by neilgodfrey »

GakuseiDon wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 6:39 pm
neilgodfrey wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 4:09 amEverything at https://vridar.org/historical-method-an ... n-origins/ is what you will find in discussions of historical research by historians.

I set out a chart of a handful of case studies at https://vridar.org/2013/01/31/that-char ... lanations/

I have many posts addressing this point, the first one addressing it in depth being: https://vridar.org/2010/04/24/historica ... thodology/

Some mainstream biblical historians have the honesty to acknowledge the circularity of their methods. There is no circularity in establishing historicity among mainstream historians in nonbiblical studies.
. . . Thanks for the links. Looking through them, I can't help but feel thaBut your examples in the first link are for people who have coins or contemporary sources, etc. Things we don't have for Jesus.

. . . .
I scolding GDon for outrageously misrepresenting, no, for DISrepresenting the post of my first link, I had a sleep and woke up feeling more saintly: perhaps the good fellow made an mistake in saying it was the "first link" to which he was referring. Maybe it was one of the other. So I checked this morning, hoping to find a way to let him off the hook of less than fully honest characterizations of what I have written.

So I checked the second link: I have a grid displaying the types of evidence we have for:
  • Alexander the Great
  • Julius Caesar
  • Pilate
  • Publius Vinicius the Stammerer
  • Honi the Circle Drawer
  • Bernice (daughter of Herod Agrippa I)
  • Tiro (Cicero’s slave)
  • Socrates
  • Hillel
  • Hercules
  • Romulus
  • Jesus
There is no way anyone could read that post and conclude I was unfairly comparing the evidence for Jesus with evidence for people who are known through coins or other hard, physical primary evidence. Simply no way such a thought could even be entertained by anyone reading what I wrote about the different types of evidence for different historical figures.

So I checked the third link:

That post is something of my "pride and joy" since it was the beginning of my posting my research into how historians work and comparing their methods with those of historical Jesus scholars. (Though on re-reading it I can see there are some areas where I would change the wording now.) But the primary theme of the entire post is "the nature of facts" in history and how historians determine "facts". Apart from one brief aside where I mention primary evidence in relation to Julius Caesar and Alexander, the entire post is about how knowledge is acquired by the historian: I begin with von Ranke who was primarily concerned with written records; I then refer to Carr whose famous example concerned a newspaper report of a murder; much if not most of the post refers to Elton and McKnight who are speaking primarily of written sources.

GDon, you have some explaining to do when you write
Finally, Neil Godfrey often brings up the notion of "actual historians wouldn't approach texts like biblical scholars". The thing is that it is hardly a fair comparison to say "actual historians use coins, inscriptions and contemporary sources and biblical scholars don't!" when there are no coins, inscriptions and contemporary sources in the first place.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Primacy of Marcion and implications for historicity

Post by GakuseiDon »

neilgodfrey wrote: Sun Mar 13, 2022 3:20 pmI scolding GDon for outrageously misrepresenting, no, for DISrepresenting the post of my first link, I had a sleep and woke up feeling more saintly: perhaps the good fellow made an mistake in saying it was the "first link" to which he was referring. Maybe it was one of the other. So I checked this morning, hoping to find a way to let him off the hook of less than fully honest characterizations of what I have written.
Thanks Neil, I appreciate that. :cheers: You are correct: I wrote "first link" when I meant "second link". I guess I got mixed up with your description of it as "the first one addressing it in depth", so it was the first one I opened. This is what I wrote:
GakuseiDon wrote:
neilgodfrey wrote:Everything at https://vridar.org/historical-method-an ... n-origins/ is what you will find in discussions of historical research by historians.

I set out a chart of a handful of case studies at https://vridar.org/2013/01/31/that-char ... lanations/

I have many posts addressing this point, the first one addressing it in depth being: https://vridar.org/2010/04/24/historica ... thodology/...
I was hoping that you'd give an example of historians concluding on some point of historicity (either for- or against-) with respect to what we have for Jesus. But your examples in the first link are for people who have coins or contemporary sources, etc. Things we don't have for Jesus.
It's the second link ("the first one addressing it in depth") that contain people who have coins or contemporary sources. My mistake! Apologies for that. I should have been more careful.

Still, as I wrote, it wasn't an answer to what I was asking: how have historians evaluated historicity for people where there has been doubt about the existence of that person? Preferably something where the data is similar to what we have for Jesus. But I'll go into that more in my next response.
neilgodfrey wrote: Sun Mar 13, 2022 12:32 am
GakuseiDon wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 5:42 pm Finally, Neil Godfrey often brings up the notion of "actual historians wouldn't approach texts like biblical scholars". The thing is that it is hardly a fair comparison to say "actual historians use coins, inscriptions and contemporary sources and biblical scholars don't!" when there are no coins, inscriptions and contemporary sources in the first place.
Is that really a quote of mine or something you made up to make it look like what I said? ;-)
Yikes! :facepalm: I hate it when people do that to me. Yes, you are absolutely right. I should have specified that this is a paraphrase of what I think your position is, rather than an actual quote by you. Again, my apologies!

I'll respond to the other stuff later today hopefully. Thanks.
andrewcriddle
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Re: Primacy of Marcion and implications for historicity

Post by andrewcriddle »

GakuseiDon wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 5:42 pm <SNIP>

Finally, Neil Godfrey often brings up the notion of "actual historians wouldn't approach texts like biblical scholars". The thing is that it is hardly a fair comparison to say "actual historians use coins, inscriptions and contemporary sources and biblical scholars don't!" when there are no coins, inscriptions and contemporary sources in the first place. Similarly, it is hardly fair to claim that actual historians don't use criteria developed to examine the unique situation of having Gospel texts written within a short period of each other, when that unique opportunity rarely pops up. For Neil's objections to have any weight, I'd like to see a situation as close as possible as to the one we have with the data for Jesus, to see how actual historians handle that situation.
One interesting possible comparison is the study of Pythagoras and early Pythagoreans. The problems with narrowly defined primary evidence are IMO more serious than those concerning the life of Jesus. However, well regarded scholars do important work in this field.

One possible response would be to claim Pythagorean studies as unsound. However, I think other areas of the history of ancient philosophy would be vulnerable to the same critique.

Andrew Criddle
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Primacy of Marcion and implications for historicity

Post by neilgodfrey »

GakuseiDon wrote: Sun Mar 13, 2022 3:51 pm Still, as I wrote, it wasn't an answer to what I was asking: how have historians evaluated historicity for people where there has been doubt about the existence of that person? Preferably something where the data is similar to what we have for Jesus. But I'll go into that more in my next response.
Give me an example of figures where there is a problem of the kind you seem to be suggesting. It is clear to anyone who reads a lot of works by historians that the case biblical scholars present for Jesus really is unique. It is made a special case for which I know no parallel among historical figures. Plenty of comparable cases where there is no certainty at all.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Primacy of Marcion and implications for historicity

Post by neilgodfrey »

andrewcriddle wrote: Sun Mar 13, 2022 4:51 pm
One possible response would be to claim Pythagorean studies as unsound. However, I think other areas of the history of ancient philosophy would be vulnerable to the same critique.

Andrew Criddle
This is misconstruing how historical research is undertaken.

Can you give some examples of "Pythagorean studies" to demonstrate your point?

The historicity of Pythagoras is questionable; though I think a case can be made for his historicity. But so what? Of course there are cases in ancient times where our knowledge is uncertain, and as I have said repeatedly, historians don't lower their standards but instead refine their questions to whatever the evidence can handle.

Hence "Pythagorean studies" (whatever they are): Pythagorean thought is what is significant and influential. It matters not one bit whether Pythagoras was historical in those studies.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Primacy of Marcion and implications for historicity

Post by neilgodfrey »

I would hope that the question of Jesus' historicity can be set aside, actually, and serious focus given to how historians actually work. After that, and only after that, can a serious study of Jesus be addressed, imo.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Primacy of Marcion and implications for historicity

Post by neilgodfrey »

It is significant, I think, that among ("nonbiblical") historians the question of "how can we tell if X happened or existed" is rarely addressed. I suspect that is because the basics are covered in manuals and handbooks for post grad students.

Historians are used to dealing with sources that they can verify and on the basis of that verification they drew conclusions from them. They are not used to picking up and working with narratives that are anonymous, without any sources specified, clearly focused on matters of faith and with evident literary relationships with fictions, and not testified independently until a hundred or more years after they were supposed to have been written. They just don't deal with those kinds of sources for what should be obvious reasons.

So let's see exactly how historians do research. Take any relatively modern scholarly text on a particular area of ancient history. Take two or twenty of them. Read them. See what their sources are. How they work. Compare with the handbooks that instructed them in their student days.

Then turn to Jesus studies and compare.

There is nothing unfair about anything I am trying to point out. And try to overcome hangups about mythicism. I am quite open to the possibility of a historical Jesus. If such a figure could be found to be the best explanation for the sources we have, then that's great. I'd love to dive into such a study.
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