Is Romans 9:5 a late catholic interpolation?

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GakuseiDon
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Re: Is Romans 9:5 a late catholic interpolation?

Post by GakuseiDon »

Irish1975 wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 11:25 am
GakuseiDon wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:16 pm Nitpick: there is no "descended" in Phil 2. That's important if reading this through Adam christology, whereby Jesus (like Adam) was in the image of God, but, unlike Adam, didn't grasp at being equal with God (which Adam did by taking the fruit from the Tree) and so Jesus was exalted.
The Descent-Ascent myth is represented in the "humbling" (sinking to earth) in verse 8, the "exalted him" in verse 9, and the 3-tier cosmology ("above, on earth, below") in verse 10.
You might be right, but I don't see any of that there I'm afraid (then again, I am an amateur with no knowledge of the ancient languages involved).

The "humbled/exalted" pair is used in a few places in the NT. Examples:

Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Luk 14:11 For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

2Co 11:7 Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely?


The above are all about mindset rather than physical direction. If we look at Phil 2, the passage starts with the same theme:

Phil 2:4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:


And then that "mind" is explained using the "humble/exalted" motif. Might that also imply "descent/risen", in combination with Phil 10? It's possible, but given Phil 5's use of "this mind", it doesn't seem to fit. Paul is urging his follow Christians to adopt the mindset of being humble, not to "descend/arise", at least not in a locational sense. Perhaps Paul means that, but it isn't there explicitly.
Irish1975 wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 11:25 amBut I don't even understand why Christ's descent would be a problem for your "Adam christology."
It doesn't in itself; but the comparison is that Adam was in the image of God but didn't humble himself, instead tried to grasp at being equal with God and so died without exaltation; whereas Jesus was in the image of God but did humble himself, and as a result died and was exalted. Turning "humble/exalted" into a directional vector removes that reading -- though possibly both readings can be true at the same time, I guess.
Steven Avery
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Re: Is Romans 9:5 a late catholic interpolation?

Post by Steven Avery »

Apparently N. T. Wright has his Romans 9:5 commentary in the New Interpreter's Bible.
https://www.answering-islam.org/authors ... ly/4e.html

And maybe in other works

Paul and the Theology of Romans
Paul for Everyone: Romans: Chapters 1-8
Paul and Caesar: A New Reading of Romans

This blog page above (uneven) has two extracts from the Interpreter's Bible:

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i. from them comes the Messiah according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever, Amen.

ii. from them comes the Messiah according to the flesh, who is over all. God be blessed for ever, Amen.

iii. from them comes the Messiah according to the flesh. God who is over all be blessed for ever, Amen.

Grammatically the arguments weigh heavily on the side of (i); in other words, on the side that Paul does indeed here ascribe divinity to Christ. Of the various arguments here, perhaps the strongest is that it would be highly unusual for Paul to write an asyndetic doxology–that is, an expression of praise that is not linked to a word in the immediately preceding sentence (see, e.g., 1:25).

More compelling than grammar alone is the consideration of how v. 5, read according to (i) above, makes sense in its wider context. We have already remarked how the complex theological statement of the gospel in 1:3-4 serves as an introduction to the whole letter, especially to chaps. 1-8. In this statement Jesus is described as both “of the seed of David according to the flesh” and also “son of God in power according to the spirit holiness.” This leads to an emphasis on his universal rule and a call to allegiance. A double statement in which the Messiah’s “fleshly” descent is balanced by his universal sovereignty would form a close parallel to this, creating a probability that at least “who is over all” goes with “Christ.” This would seem to favor (i) or (ii), but it has to be said that the abrupt final sentence of (ii) is even less likely than the longer but nevertheless “unbalanced” sentence in (iii). In other words, if 9:5 is intended to be the same kind of double statement that we find in 1:3-4, (i) is the most likely reading…

If we read v. 5 in this way, what force does it add to the opening paragraph as a whole? Just this: that the Messiah who is from Israel’s own race, their highest privilege and final hope, is the very embodiment of their sovereign Lord, their covenant God. And it is he whom they have rejected; this is precisely the point Paul makes in 10:21, at the close of the main “story” of chaps. 9 and 10. Just as Israel rejected their God on Mt. Sinai, precipitating Moses into his extraordinary prayer (see above), so now Israel according to the flesh has rejected its God as he came in the flesh, precipitating Paul into his own version of that prayer and his own great, unceasing grief. Israel’s highest privilege, when spurned, becomes the cause of Israel’s greatest tragedy.

But even that tragedy contains within itself the seed of hope. Just because the Messiah “according to the flesh” is also “God over all, blessed for ever,” and particularly because his “flesh” was the place where God “condemned sin” (8:3), so the strange and sad story of Israel’s fate, to which Paul will now turn, is designed to lead on and out into new life. Read in this way, 9:5 becomes an exact, if ironic, summary of both parts of the argument that will now unfold.

(N. T. Wright, “The Letter to the Romans: Introduction, Commentary, and Reflections,” The New Interpreter’s Bible, Volume X, pp. 630-631; bold emphasis ours)

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“But there are also indications that Paul intended 9:5 to serve in this way–not as a detached Christological statement (he was not given to sudden statements of doctrine, however, important, in isolation from actual arguments), but as a kind of heading for what is to come. The whole argument of 9-11, as we have suggested, moves toward, and finally affirms, the universal sovereignty of Jesus as Messiah and Lord, with 10:4-13 as the decisive statement. Though Paul does not there call Jesus (theos, ‘God’), he calls him (kyrios, ‘Lord’), in one of the many passages where he is quoting from a Septuagint passage in which kyrios stood unambiguously for the Tetragrammaton, the sacred name YHWH… (10:13, quoting Joel 3:5 LXX; see the Commentary on 10:13). The stress on ‘all’ in this central passage picks up exactly the point of ‘who is over all’ in 9:5, and increases the strong possibility that Paul intended the word ‘God’ there to understood as a predicate of the Messiah. Chapters 9-11 close with the intention of God toward ‘all’ (11:32), and a burst of praise to God (11:33-36) that echoes the brief ‘blessed for ever’ of 9:5 (cf. 14:5-12).”

(Wright, The New Interpreter’s Bible, pp. 630-631; bold emphasis ours)

And:

“… Jew and Gentile come together in sharing the common faith in the same Lord (Paul is already looking ahead to chap. 14). And the ‘Lord’ in question, while identified from the earlier verses as Jesus the Messiah, is equally the (kyrios) of the LXX. This is where the breathtaking assertion of 9:5, that the Messiah who belonged to Israel according to the flesh is also ‘God over all, blessed for ever,’ shows up at the heart of the argument. This is where christology determines ecclesiology–including where the church stands vis-à-vis the pagan emperor!–as well as soteriology. ‘The same Lord is Lord of all.’ That was what Caesar claimed, and it was what Paul claimed for Jesus. At the same time, Paul is picking up, and transforming, a regular Jewish theme: one God, therefore one people of Israel (cf. Zech 14:9-17). Where, before, ‘no distinction ‘ was explained by ‘for all have sinned’ (3:23), now it can be explained by ‘for there is one Lord of all.’ As in 3:27-30, monotheism undergirds the universality of the gospel–though, as elsewhere in Paul, it is monotheism with Jesus at the heart of it.”

(Ibid., p. 665; bold emphasis ours)

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davidmartin
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Re: Is Romans 9:5 a late catholic interpolation?

Post by davidmartin »

Steven what you wrote is interesting and looks solid
the only problem is you write as if Paul is some impartial observer of Isreal's rejection
In actual fact it follows that what Paul speaks of is his own gospel that is being rejected and by extension himself
So then, is not Paul projecting his own rejection onto them in the narrative of them rejecting Christ? At least to a degree
I am interested in the psychology of this
There is no way Paul's gospel is going to fly among normative Judaism so if Paul is aware of this he has a platform to conflate this with their rejection of Christ
But Paul cannot speak as an impartial observer when he is so heavily invested himself
If that isn't factored into the analysis somehow - and acknowledged and answered then the analysis is flawed
schillingklaus
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Re: Is Romans 9:5 a late catholic interpolation?

Post by schillingklaus »

Almost all of chptr 9 is a post-marcionite interpolation, as already realized by van Manen and improved by Hermann Detering in Der Römerbrief in seiner ursprünglichen Gestalt.
Steven Avery
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Re: Is Romans 9:5 a late catholic interpolation?

Post by Steven Avery »

Just to be clear, I was not endorsing N. T. Wright.

Just trying to find out what he wrote.
perseusomega9
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Re: Is Romans 9:5 a late catholic interpolation?

Post by perseusomega9 »

Try his books.
Mask
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Re: Is Romans 9:5 a late catholic interpolation?

Post by Mask »

@ Steven Avery Thanks for posting that material. NTW does cover Romans 9:5 in detail in his Paul and the Faithfulness of God (PFG), but what you posted looks at it from a bit of a different angle.

@davidmartin A fascinating question!
Perhaps a quote from PFG might help here: “It is the rejection of this kyrios by his fellow Israelites that causes Paul such grief and anguish, but his double formulation here shows how he will proceed to wrestle with the problem: the Messiah belongs to Israel 'according to the flesh' but he is also God over all, Jew and gentile alike. That represents and summarises both the tragedy of Israel's unbelief and the prospects of God's greater plan, the dialogue between which constitutes the primary argument of chapters 9-11”.

I think I would ask the question- how do you think the common Jewish rejection of Jesus would have impacted Paul's analysis as above?

The gospel evidence and subsequent history makes it clear the rejection was from the first a thing. One question is- why did the Early Church not keep plugging away with the Jewish mission (they were making some steady progress) and where did they get the idea that the Messiah/Kingdom of God (KOG) was for the nations? There is multiple attestation of sources and forms that Jesus saw the KOG as going further than Israel, as well as an underlying OT meta-narrative (Abraham etc) that this would be a thing. Paul's role was to draw together what was already there and give it coherence.

That would not rule out that how he put some of the things he wrote was affected by his rejection, but I don't see his solution content as coming from him.
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Irish1975
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Re: Is Romans 9:5 a late catholic interpolation?

Post by Irish1975 »

Romans 9-11 has nothing to do with any “rejection by Israel of their messiah.” The topic is God’s rejection of the people of Israel.
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Irish1975
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Re: Is Romans 9:5 a late catholic interpolation?

Post by Irish1975 »

Only a remnant shall be saved (as it always was). The descendants of the flesh are, in fact, not Israel at all, but mere vessels of wrath to demonstrate His sovereign power. The problem is not any failure to accept a messiah, but rather an ignorant zeal, an ignorance of God’s righteousness (because being vessels-of-wrath didn’t enlighten them on this, apparently); Israel’s pursuit of its own righteousness, through works rather than through faith.

Branches have been broken off. They have “fallen” (11:22). The apostle speaks openly of their “rejection” (ἡ ἀποβολὴ αὐτῶν, literally a “throwing away”), which was “for the reconciliation of the cosmos” (11:15). But only a desperate sophistry could interpret this verse as a subjective genitve, as though Paul were speaking of the rejection of Jesus by the Jews. The larger context makes this reading impossible:
By their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
The transgression is Israel’s, the failure is Israel’s, the rejection is of the (fleshly) children of Israel. Nothing but the events of 70 or 135 CE can explain these remarks.

On some future day, the Lord will come and save Paul’s kinsmen from their present damnation. But it hasn’t happened yet:
A partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,

The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
“This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
So God tolerates the survival of these vessels of wrath, whom he has rejected for now, and made “enemies as concerns the Gospel.” Someday they’ll come back, though.

So much for the salvation that Israel has refused to accept from “Israel’s messiah.”
Mask
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Re: Is Romans 9:5 a late catholic interpolation?

Post by Mask »

Thanks for the reply. Sorry for the delay; life at the moment dictates an occasional pop in rather than something more regular.

I think I can see what you're saying- it's not about what Israel chose for itself, but about what God chose for Israel, which is rejection. To an extent I find myself agreeing with a lot of that. However I think I'd want to unpack what Paul says along those lines a bit differently.

Paul is saying in v11 that the stumble/tripping up of Israel was a necessary part of the process. Had Israel embraced the Messiah, it would have affirmed the special status of Israel, leaving the Gentiles as permanent outsiders. However that was never the plan- the idea was that all would be equally eligible for the Kingdom of God.

As for their rejection; I agree we are talking about the rejection of, not by, Israel. Now remember that Israel had a special election whose purpose was to bring about worldwide salvation. It was Jesus as the embodied representative of Israel who fulfilled this election.

The key to this is that the rejection of Israel embodies the casting away of the Messiah; but just as that latter was followed by his resurrection, so Israel will find a way to share in some form of resurrection. Therefore, just as Israel have lived through their own crucifixion, some sort of resurrection equivalent will happen.

Further, the 'jealousy' of some of the Jewish nation (see Deut 32:21) should lead to a welcome influx of ethnic Jews into the ekklesia giving it a new lease of life. This is all ground Jesus walked with the parable of the prodigal son (Luke 15), with ethnic Israel as the elder son.

Chapters 9-11 are aimed at a Gentile audience with the message being: what happened to ethnic Israel was all along part of the plan; the Gentiles are not replacing ethnic Israel, but should consider themselves fortunate because they are included in the plan.


I'm still very interested in why you think Paul and/or the Early Church did not consider Jesus to be embodied God.
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