Is Romans 9:5 a late catholic interpolation?

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Irish1975
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Is Romans 9:5 a late catholic interpolation?

Post by Irish1975 »

What the words of Romans 9:5 even say is controversial for a few reasons:
  • It has Paul acclaiming Christ as God, which he does nowhere else;
  • it is the only direct Pauline affirmation of Jesus as the Jewish messiah (albeit τὸ κατὰ σάρκα); and
  • the sequence of ideas is garbled and abrupt (e.g., εὐλογητὸς almost always precedes θεὸς in a doxology).

Romans 9:1-5

Ἀλήθειαν λέγω ἐν Χριστῷ, οὐ ψεύδομαι, συμμαρτυρούσης μοι τῆς συνειδήσεώς μου ἐν πνεύματι ἁγίῳ, ὅτι λύπη μοί ἐστιν μεγάλη καὶ ἀδιάλειπτος ὀδύνη τῇ καρδίᾳ μου. ηὐχόμην γὰρ ἀνάθεμα εἶναι αὐτὸς ἐγὼ ἀπὸ τοῦ Χριστοῦ ὑπὲρ τῶν ἀδελφῶν μου τῶν συγγενῶν μου κατὰ σάρκα, οἵτινές εἰσιν Ἰσραηλῖται, ὧν ἡ υἱοθεσία καὶ ἡ δόξα καὶ αἱ διαθῆκαι καὶ ἡ νομοθεσία καὶ ἡ λατρεία καὶ αἱ ἐπαγγελίαι, ὧν οἱ πατέρες καὶ ἐξ ὧν ὁ Χριστὸς τὸ κατὰ σάρκα, ὁ ὢν ἐπὶ πάντων θεὸς εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, ἀμήν.

There are at least two verbatim parallels:

Romans 1:25
Διὸ παρέδωκεν αὐτοὺς ὁ θεὸς ἐν ταῖς ἐπιθυμίαις τῶν καρδιῶν αὐτῶν εἰς ἀκαθαρσίαν τοῦ ἀτιμάζεσθαι τὰ σώματα αὐτῶν ἐν αὐτοῖς· 25οἵτινες μετήλλαξαν τὴν ἀλήθειαν τοῦ θεοῦ ἐν τῷ ψεύδει καὶ ἐσεβάσθησαν καὶ ἐλάτρευσαν τῇ κτίσει παρὰ τὸν κτίσαντα, ὅς ἐστιν εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, ἀμήν.

2 Corinthians 11:31
ὁ θεὸς καὶ πατὴρ τοῦ κυρίου Ἰησοῦ οἶδεν, ὁ ὢν εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, ὅτι οὐ ψεύδομαι.

In these latter two doxologies, the grammar is natural and the meaning is plain. The subject is God the creator/Father, and he is introduced first by a direct reference, and to him glory is given: who is [relative pronoun + verb] blessed unto the ages, and, the one being [article + participle] blessed unto the ages.

But in Romans 9, the apostle is somehow unable to make his meaning clear. If he had remembered himself from these previous passages, he could not have struggled to specify whether he is glorifying YHWH (the god of the Israelites, who are the topic of chapter 9); or rather ὁ Χριστὸς τὸ κατὰ σάρκα, as one must infer if the article + participle construction has any meaning.

In reality the meaning is not so unclear. But the doxology at the end does muddle things just enough to give hope to those uncomfortable with so high a Pauline christology.

Karl Barth has some interesting comments:
The words ὁ ὢν ἐπὶ πάντων, etc. may be taken as a relative clause, of which ὁ Χριστὸς, the subject of the preceding sentence clause, is the antecedent. This is strongly supported by the analogous grammatical constructions at Rom 1:25 and 2 Cor 11:31. I cannot, however, bring myself to accept 'so unparalleled an attribution of θεὸς to the exalted Lord' (Zahn) for the following reasons: first, I do not find the attribution either in 2 Th 1:12 or in Tiutus 2:13; secondly, it does not seem to be required by Rom 10:11-14; thirdly, such an attribution would, in my judgment, betray a lack of delicacy of which a thinker and writer who differentiates so clearly as Paul does would hardly have been guilty; fourthly, the passage does not play as large a part in the early Christological controversies as it must have done, had it been taken in this way: quite apart from [the fact that] the phrase ἐπὶ πάντων θεὸς εὐλογητὸς occurs frequently in the Psalms where the reference to the God of Israel seems quite obvious.
Raymond Brown also thinks that the canonical text has Paul calling Jesus God, because the grammar is simple and obvious. He equivocates with the same discomfort as Barth:
From a grammatical viewpoint this [that Christ=God] is the better reading. Also, the contextual sequence is excellent; for, having spoken of Jesus' descent according to the flesh, Paul now emphasizes his position as God. The major objection to this interpretation is that nowhere else does Paul speak of Jesus as God. Distinguished scholars are aligned on both sides of the issue. Personally, I am swayed by the grammatical evidence in favor of [the interpretation] whereby the title "God" is given to Jesus. But one may claim no more than plausibility.
(An Introduction to New Testament Christology, pp. 182-3)
The highlighted portions typify RB's habit of diplomatic, both-sides bullshit (typical for "centrists" in general) when he obviously knows exactly what the text says and cannot avoid accepting it. But he writes as though grammar were a "viewpoint" and merely a single piece of "evidence." Barth says much the same, but he cannot bring himself to accept the scripture for what it is, and thus hypothesizes a corruption of a now lost original verse lauding the God of Israel as their most important and sacred qualification. And what is more relevant to the question of Israel's status as the chosen people than the fact that their god is the One True God? Barth is right to complain that Romans 9 is strange not to assert this.

The root of the problem of Romans 9:5 is theological, not philological. It is not a question of "where to put the punctuation." Rather, the exegete or translator puts the punctuation wherever he does after he has made up his mind what the verse means. Thus the RSV gives

and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen.

This translation is tendentious, because it simply ignores the repetition of the definite article ὁ in the phrase Χριστὸς τὸ κατὰ σάρκα ὢν ἐπὶ πάντων θεὸς, which secures the reference only to Christ.

There is no question that the grammar compels us to understand Paul attributing deity to Christ, in spite of the garbled quality of the whole verse that results from the combination of this affirmation about Christ's deity with the typical language of Pauline doxologies of God the Father/Creator, which in turn derives from the phrasing of the doxologies of YHWH in the LXX Psalms.

The text calls Christ God. Because this statement is genuinely un-Pauline, and most likely a mimicry of 2 Corinthians 11:31 and/or Romans 1:25 and/or the LXX Psalms, and ambiguously worded like many other fraudulent biblical texts, and an abrupt change of subject matter within the discourse about the people of Israel introduced at 9:1ff., I suggest that this is simply a late catholic interpolation. Traditional interpreters of Paul will reject this idea on principle, and cry out that there are no textual variants. But what could be more dear to the catholic editors of the NT than to exalt Christ's divinity, albeit with becoming scriptural ambiguity? And, of course, to silence anyone who doubted that Paul preached the same Jesus as the Evangelists.

It is not irrelevant that chapter 9 is entirely unattested by the witnesses to Marcion's text. Tertullian complains of an "immense chasm" (salio et hic amplissimum abruptum intercisae scripturae).

The lack of confidence that exegetes have demonstrated about Romans 9:5 for centuries probably betrays some suspicion that Paul would never have written it. But they don't want to name this suspicion, because it would then also cast doubt on the immediately previous assertion about the Jewish messiah. And they need that verse because nowhere else does Paul so much as seem to think of Jesus as a Jewish messiah, and the only reference to him as a recently historical man in Judea is the very doubtful 1 Th 2:14-16.
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Re: Is Romans 9:5 a late catholic interpolation?

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MrMacSon
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Re: Is Romans 9:5 a late catholic interpolation?

Post by MrMacSon »

Irish1975 wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 12:25 pm
What the words of Romans 9:5 even say is controversial for a few reasons:
  • It has Paul acclaiming Christ as God, which he does nowhere else;
  • it is the only direct Pauline affirmation of Jesus as the Jewish messiah (albeit τὸ κατὰ σάρκα); and
  • the sequence of ideas is garbled and abrupt (e.g., εὐλογητὸς almost always precedes θεὸς in a doxology).

Romans 9:1-5

Ἀλήθειαν λέγω ἐν Χριστῷ, οὐ ψεύδομαι, συμμαρτυρούσης μοι τῆς συνειδήσεώς μου ἐν πνεύματι ἁγίῳ, ὅτι λύπη μοί ἐστιν μεγάλη καὶ ἀδιάλειπτος ὀδύνη τῇ καρδίᾳ μου. ηὐχόμην γὰρ ἀνάθεμα εἶναι αὐτὸς ἐγὼ ἀπὸ τοῦ Χριστοῦ ὑπὲρ τῶν ἀδελφῶν μου τῶν συγγενῶν μου κατὰ σάρκα, οἵτινές εἰσιν Ἰσραηλῖται, ὧν ἡ υἱοθεσία καὶ ἡ δόξα καὶ αἱ διαθῆκαι καὶ ἡ νομοθεσία καὶ ἡ λατρεία καὶ αἱ ἐπαγγελίαι, ὧν οἱ πατέρες καὶ ἐξ ὧν ὁ Χριστὸς τὸ κατὰ σάρκα, ὁ ὢν ἐπὶ πάντων θεὸς εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, ἀμήν.

There are at least two verbatim parallels:

Romans 1:25
Διὸ παρέδωκεν αὐτοὺς ὁ θεὸς ἐν ταῖς ἐπιθυμίαις τῶν καρδιῶν αὐτῶν εἰς ἀκαθαρσίαν τοῦ ἀτιμάζεσθαι τὰ σώματα αὐτῶν ἐν αὐτοῖς· 25οἵτινες μετήλλαξαν τὴν ἀλήθειαν τοῦ θεοῦ ἐν τῷ ψεύδει καὶ ἐσεβάσθησαν καὶ ἐλάτρευσαν τῇ κτίσει παρὰ τὸν κτίσαντα, ὅς ἐστιν εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, ἀμήν.

2 Corinthians 11:31
ὁ θεὸς καὶ πατὴρ τοῦ κυρίου Ἰησοῦ οἶδεν, ὁ ὢν εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, ὅτι οὐ ψεύδομαι.

In these latter two doxologies, the grammar is natural and the meaning is plain. The subject is God the creator/Father, and he is introduced first by a direct reference, and to him glory is given: who is [relative pronoun + verb] blessed unto the ages, and, the one being [article + participle] blessed unto the ages.

But in Romans 9, the apostle is somehow unable to make his meaning clear. If he had remembered himself from these previous passages, he could not have struggled to specify whether he is glorifying YHWH (the god of the Israelites, who are the topic of chapter 9); or rather ὁ Χριστὸς τὸ κατὰ σάρκα, as one must infer if the article + participle construction has any meaning.

In reality the meaning is not so unclear. But the doxology at the end does muddle things just enough to give hope to those uncomfortable with so high a Pauline christology.
< . . snip . . >
The root of the problem of Romans 9:5 is theological, not philological. It is not a question of "where to put the punctuation." Rather, the exegete or translator puts the punctuation wherever he does after he has made up his mind what the verse means. Thus the RSV gives

and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen.

This translation is tendentious, because it simply ignores the repetition of the definite article ὁ in the phrase Χριστὸς τὸ κατὰ σάρκα ὢν ἐπὶ πάντων θεὸς, which secures the reference only to Christ.

There is no question that the grammar compels us to understand Paul attributing deity to Christ, in spite of the garbled quality of the whole verse that results from the combination of this affirmation about Christ's deity with the typical language of Pauline doxologies of God the Father/Creator, which in turn derives from the phrasing of the doxologies of YHWH in the LXX Psalms.

The text calls Christ God ...
.
Irish1975 has the Greek pretty well sorted, but fwiw it's interesting how Romans 9:5 is 'perceived' in some other English versions

.
KJ21 of whom are the fathers, and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

ASV whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

CJB the Patriarchs are theirs; and from them, as far as his physical descent is concerned, came the Messiah, who is over all. Praised be Adonai for ever! Amen.

DRA Whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ, according to the flesh, who is over all things, God blessed for ever. Amen.

HCSB
The ancestors are theirs, and from them, by physical descent, came the Messiah, who is God over all, praised forever. Amen

ISV To the Israelis belong the patriarchs, and from them, the Messiah descended, who is God over all, the one who is forever blessed. Amen

JUB whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh is the Christ, who is God over all things, blessed for all the ages. Amen.

KJV Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

NRSV to them belong the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, comes the Messiah, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

NRSVA to them belong the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, comes the Messiah, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

WYC whose be the fathers, and of which is Christ after the flesh, that is God above all things, blessed into worlds. Amen.

YLT whose [are] the fathers, and of whom [is] the Christ, according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed to the ages. Amen.

more via https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Romans%209:5
.

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GakuseiDon
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Re: Is Romans 9:5 a late catholic interpolation?

Post by GakuseiDon »

Irish1975 wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 12:25 pmThe text calls Christ God. Because this statement is genuinely un-Pauline, and most likely a mimicry of 2 Corinthians 11:31 and/or Romans 1:25 and/or the LXX Psalms, and ambiguously worded like many other fraudulent biblical texts, and an abrupt change of subject matter within the discourse about the people of Israel introduced at 9:1ff., I suggest that this is simply a late catholic interpolation. Traditional interpreters of Paul will reject this idea on principle, and cry out that there are no textual variants. But what could be more dear to the catholic editors of the NT than to exalt Christ's divinity, albeit with becoming scriptural ambiguity? And, of course, to silence anyone who doubted that Paul preached the same Jesus as the Evangelists.
I have no training or knowledge in the ancient languages at all, so feel I can make a significant contribution to the discussion! :eek:

Rather than being something added via catholic interpolation, perhaps something was removed by them? There is a parallel of sorts to Phil 2. I'll lay them out here:

Rom 9:
3. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4. Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5. Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.


Compare that to:

Phil 2:
8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10. That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11. And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


So perhaps the original for Rom 9.5 might have been something like:

Rom 9:5. Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, to the glory of God the Father who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

The catholic redactor took out the bolded text in order to have Paul say that Christ is God, at a time when that became important.

Again, I have no evidence and no training in ancient Greek to back up the viability of that idea. It's just that I see thematic echoes between the two passages.
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Re: Is Romans 9:5 a late catholic interpolation?

Post by gryan »

I accept the "God and Christ" text of Gal 2:20 as authentic (for text critical argument, see Carlson, Text of Gal) for the following translation:

"I have been co-crucified with Christ, and it is not longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And so the life which I now live the in the flesh, in the faithfulness I live--that of the God and Anointed One, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God. For if righteousness comes through the law, Christ died for nothing."

I interpreted "the God and Christ/Anointed One" as a divine being in the subordinationist royal sense of (Heb 1:9/Ps 45:7),

"therefore God [the son of God], Your God [the Father], has anointed You [as Christ] above Your companions with the oil of joy."

-------------
Assuming a similar subordiationist Christological context for speaking of the anointed king as "God" in Rom 9:5, I have no problem reading it as authentically Pauline language.

Thanks for this thread! Before today, I had not studied Rom 9:5 in any depth.
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Irish1975
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Re: Is Romans 9:5 a late catholic interpolation?

Post by Irish1975 »

The following passage from 1 Corinthians 15 (especially vv. 27-28) is valuable evidence that, in the genuine Pauline theology, Christ is not understood to be "God over all" (ἐπὶ πάντων θεὸς) in the same sense as God the Father. The one who has died and been raised from the dead, and to whom all authority and power are being subjected, is yet himself still subject to that One God who will be "all in all" in the end times.

20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,
24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Romans 9:5 comes from a completely different awareness, free of any Jewish eschatology.

When Paul wants to assert the pre-eminent authority or sovereignty of Jesus Christ, whether below or on or above the earth, he uses the title "Lord." Lord and God are not interchangeable terms (cf. 1 Cor 8).
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Re: Is Romans 9:5 a late catholic interpolation?

Post by gryan »

Irish1975 wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 7:41 am The following passage from 1 Corinthians 15 (especially vv. 27-28) is valuable evidence that, in the genuine Pauline theology, Christ is not understood to be "God over all" (ἐπὶ πάντων θεὸς) in the same sense as God the Father....
Given my reading of "all flesh" in Gal 2:12, I read "God over all" as King over all flesh (i.e. without the former distinction between Jewish flesh and Gentile flesh).

On "all" Cf. Heb 2:9

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because He suffered death, so that apart from God He might taste death for all." (note the textual variant "apart from" is preferred to "by the grace of" per Ehrman, Orthodox Corruption).
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Irish1975
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Re: Is Romans 9:5 a late catholic interpolation?

Post by Irish1975 »

gryan wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 7:49 am On "all" Cf. Heb 2:9

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because He suffered death, so that apart from God He might taste death for all." (note the textual variant "apart from" is preferred to "by the grace of" per Ehrman, Orthodox Corruption).
Is the idea that "apart from God" means that God divided a portion of himself for a time so that he could send it to earth to die, and therefore Christ really is "God"? To me this all seems fanciful as a reading of either Hebrews or of Paul. You found an ambiguous variant in Galatians 2:20, but there are many other Pauline texts in which the God/Christ distinction is both clear and necessary.
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Re: Is Romans 9:5 a late catholic interpolation?

Post by gryan »

I read the "apart from God" from the point of view of a human feeling of being separated from God.

Cf. Psalm 22:1 (Where tradition would have us hear King David lamenting)
My God, my God, why have You forsaken me? Why are You so far from saving me, so far from my words of groaning?

Mark 15:34 (King Jesus echoes King David's lament)
At the ninth hour, Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?" which means, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"

Hebrews 5:7
During the days of Jesus' earthly life, He offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the One who could save Him from death, and He was heard because of His reverence.

In what sense was Jesus "heard"? I'm wondering.
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Irish1975
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Re: Is Romans 9:5 a late catholic interpolation?

Post by Irish1975 »

Irish1975 wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 12:25 pm The text calls Christ God. Because this statement is genuinely un-Pauline, and most likely a mimicry of 2 Corinthians 11:31 and/or Romans 1:25 and/or the LXX Psalms…
An alternative theory is that all three of these NT doxologies are from the pen of the same late editor(s). All three would have taken their wording from the LXX Psalter.

The anti-Marcion thrust of Romans 1:25, in praise of the creator, is obvious. And 2 Corinthians 11:31-33, which contains the abrupt and unmotivated “confirmation” of the story of Paul’s romantic escape from Damascus in Acts, is obviously suspcious (although I am aware that some people on this forum are convinced that this 2-verse chestnut is a slam dunk certification of the 1st century dating of the Pauline epistles.)

31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, He who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying.
32 In Damascus the ethnarch under Aretas the king was guarding the city of the Damascenes in order to seize me,
33 and I was let down in a basket through a window in the wall, and so escaped his hands.

We have every reason to believe that the catholic editors (a) sought to counter Marcion, and (b) deployed Acts to construct a single narrative framework for Paul, the Gospels, and the early apostolic church. All three of these Pauline doxologies would have served this agenda.
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