First Corinthians 10 (and just a bit of 11)

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Ken Olson
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First Corinthians 10 (and just a bit of 11)

Post by Ken Olson »

This is the longer post on idol meat in 1 Corinthians 10 that I have been working on to try to clarify what I think is going on in the text.

10.1  I do not want you to be unaware, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 and all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them, and they were struck down in the wilderness.

Paul is setting up the model of what happened to the Israelites as an example for what could happen to the Corinthian Christians. He has retrojected Christian elements back into the story to make the model fit better. The ancient Israelites were baptized into Moses (a concept foreign to Judaism) as you were baptized into Christ, and they ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink from the rock that was Christ. So you have no advantage over them. Your baptism and participation in the eucharist are not going to protect you if you do wrong any more than it did them. He refers to the ancient Israelites as ‘our ancestors’ not because the Corinthians whom he is addressing are of Jewish descent genetically but because, as Gentile converts, they are part of the true Israel or Israel of the spirit (in Romans 11.17-21 he uses the metaphor of wild branches grafted onto a tree to describe the gentile Christians relationship to Israel).

6 Now these things occurred as examples for us, so that we might not desire evil as they did. 7 Do not become idolaters as some of them did; as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and they rose up to play.” 8 We must not indulge in sexual immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day. 9 We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did, and were destroyed by serpents. 10 And do not complain as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11 These things happened to them to serve as an example, and they were written down to instruct us, on whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 So if you think you are standing, watch out that you do not fall. 13 No testing has overtaken you that is not common to everyone. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tested beyond your strength, but with the testing he will also provide the way out so that you may be able to endure it.

In this section Paul makes the point of the previous section explicit. It serves as an example (types v. 6, typical v. 11) – and a warning – to the present generation. He specifically calls out idolaters (v.7, the subject of the present chapter) and fornicators (v. 8, looking back to chapter 5.1-6.), as well as those who put Christ to the test (presumably looking ahead to 10.22) and complainers (those who don’t accept God’s will as delivered by Paul?). Paul repeats the word test or trial several time – but he also emphasizes that the test is *easy* - the test you face is no more difficult than the tests common to everyone and not beyond your strength.

It will be necessary to examine the section 1 Cor. 10.14-22 in a bit more detail, as this has proved the most controversial section so far.

14 Therefore, my dear friends, flee from the worship of idols. 15 I speak as to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say.

Paul finally gets to the main point of the chapter 8: ‘Do not worship idols! This ought to be obvious.’

He does not directly address the implied argument of those ‘who have knowledge’ from chapter 8 that when they eat meat in the temple of an idol they are not, in fact, engaging in idol worship because they know no idol exists and there is no God but one (1 Cor. 8.4).

Paul is having none of it. If you are eating meat sacrificed to and idol in the temple of an idol with other people who are worshipping demons, then you are worshipping demons. He gives two examples of worship, that of Christians and that of Jews:

 16 The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a sharing in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a sharing in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread.

In his description of Christian worship, the celebration of the eucharist, emphasizes that worship is a communal activity four times, twice using the word κοινωνία (sharing, or ‘communion’), then ‘we who are many are one’, then ‘we all partake’.

18 Consider the people of Israel according to the flesh; are not those who eat the sacrifices partners in the altar?

With respect to Israelite worship, Paul again emphasizes that worship is a group activity using the word κοινωνία (here translated ‘partners’).

(I take Israel ‘according to the flesh’ to mean those of Hebrew descent as opposed to gentile converts who have been adopted or grafted into Israel).

19 What do I imply then? That food sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20 No,

Here Paul explicitly denies that the food is anything or that the idols are anything. He has not changed his mind on that. The food is just food. The idols are dumb objects. So what does he mean? He tells us in the next verse:

I imply that what [pagans/they] sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be partners with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.

Having clarified what he did not mean in v. 19 (the meat is nothing, the idols are nothing), Paul moves on to what he does mean: ‘what they (some manuscripts have: ‘the pagans’) sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God.’

The most controversial interpretive problem in this verse is who ‘they’ are. The word pagans (τὰ ἔθνη, literally ‘the nations’) found in many manuscripts may well be an interpretive gloss by a later scribe. There are several possibilities. The first is that, while the word pagans may be a later scribal gloss, that clarified the meaning of the verse, it may well have been correct as to what Paul meant. The second is that, since the chapter began with a discussion of the Israelites and some of them became idolaters (v.7), and the last group specifically mentioned in the chapter was the people of Israel in v. 18, ‘they’ may mean the people of Israel. Third, it could refer to Christians who participate in sacrifice.

All of these are possible. I think the third is the least likely. While Paul is most concerned that Christians not engage in sacrifice to idols, which is demon worship, he has been referring to Christians as ‘we’, meaning Christians in general including himself, and ‘you’ the ones engaged in problematic behavior. It seems likely that the third person ‘they’ indicates some other group which ‘you’ should not emulate or attach yourselves.

Neither does it seem that Israel is the most likely option. Despite the fact that Paul earlier in the chapter referred to some Israelites in the time of Moses engaging in idolatry, there is no warrant elsewhere in Paul’s letters for the idea that this is what the people of Israel do in general and as a whole. Also, the question ‘What do I imply then?’ in v. 19 seems to be concluding the examples just given of Christian and Jewish worship and drawing out a general lesson from them to be applied to idol worship.

I think, therefore, that Paul is indeed talking about pagan idolators in v. 20, both because pagans are generally regarded as idolaters by Jews (the terms are almost synonymous) and because Paul was speaking about Christians attending feasts in pagan temples and eating meat sacrificed to idols in 1 Cor. 8.10, so there is a context for that understanding in this letter.

What is this general lesson? It may not especially matter exactly which group he means by the ‘they’ (or ‘they sacrifice’) in v. 20. What Paul is emphasizing is the activity of worship and the partnership or fellowship (κοινωνία) one enters into, depending on who one worships with and who or what is the object of worship. If you participate in the worship, you enter into the κοινωνία. One cannot participate in the worship and say one is not individually involved.

Now one might object that Paul does not explicitly say he is addressing meat sacrificed to idols only in a group religious ceremony or in pagan temples in verses 20-21, so it is illegitimate to infer he is addressing only those contexts specifically as opposed to eating meat sacrificed to idols in general. There are, however, several arguments in favor of that interpretation.

First, there is a known prior context in the letter in which Paul was specifically talking about meat sacrificed to idols eaten in temples (1 Cor. 8.10), so that is a possibility.

Second, the examples Paul gives for comparison with the worship of Christians in vv. 16-17 and Jews in v. 18 involve ceremonies and being in κοινωνία with the worshippers and/or the worshipped. He emphasizes after his two examples that the meat is nothing and the idols are nothing. If meat became permanently contaminated by being sacrificed to idols so that anyone who ate it anytime afterwords, it would be strange to say the meat is nothing. It is more likely that the meat is nothing, but eating it in the context of worship is something.

Third, in the succeeding passages, where Paul specifies contexts (purchasing meat in the market v.25, attending dinner in a private home as a guest v.27) in which it is allowable to eat meat without first determining whether it was sacrificed to idols, Paul is clearly not talking about attending public rituals practiced in pagan temples.

Naturally, this reading is not indisputable, but it is a strong reading and makes sense of the text. I do not know of a stronger available reading.

22 Or are we provoking the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than he? Do All to the Glory of God.

This verse contains two rhetorical questions anticipating a negative answer here. Paul clearly intends his addressees to understand that (1) no one is stronger than God and (2) you should not provoke him through idolatry as the Israelites in v. 7 did and put him to the test. Paul had said at the beginning of this section that he was addressing them as to sensible people (v.7), and no sensible person would think he was stronger than God or provoke him to jealousy.

Paul is perhaps being unfair to the Corinthians who claimed that what they were doing did not constitute idol worship. Unfair or not, Paul is saying that it does.

The following section, 1 Cor. 10.23-11.1 (the first verse of chapter 11 belongs in this section and ought to have been placed at the end of chapter 10; I’m looking at you, Stephen Langton) introduces two contexts in which meat that had been sacrificed might be eaten.

23 “All things are lawful,” but not all things are beneficial. “All things are lawful,” but not all things build up. 24 Do not seek your own advantage, but that of the other.

Paul returns to the argument made in chapters 8 and 9. There are rights that one has that one should refrain from exercising for the sake of another.

 25 Eat whatever is sold in the meat market without raising any question on the ground of conscience,
 26 for “the earth and its fullness are the Lord’s.”

Verses 25-26 are fairly clear: unlike whatever context is being addressed in vv. 20-21 (which I take to be public feasts in temples), you can eat meat sold in the marketplace without having to first establish whether or not it had previously been sacrificed. This is consistent with what Paul has said about meat being nothing. It is not a property of the meat itself or of eating it that constitutes partnership with demons.

 
27 If an unbeliever invites you to a meal and you are disposed to go, eat whatever is set before you without raising any question on the ground of conscience.

Verse 27 is similar to vv 25-6: In the context of a meal at someone’s home, one can eat whatever is et before them without raising questions about its origins (i.e. whether the meat had been sacrificed to a pagan idol).

28 But if someone says to you, “This has been offered in sacrifice,” then do not eat it, out of consideration for the one who informed you, and for the sake of conscience— 29 I mean the other’s conscience, not your own.

Having said that one can eat meat as a guest at dinner without inquiring about whether the meat had previously been sacrificed to an idol, Paul addresses a hypothetical situation in which one nevertheless learns that the meat has been sacrificed to an idol through another person. Paul says that in such a case, one should refrain from eating the meat for the sake of that person’s conscience, not your own. Presumably the other person is a Christian who is concerned not to eat meat that has been sacrificed to idols and has informed you that this particular meat has been. Paul is saying that you could still eat the meat in good conscience, but should refrain for the sake of the other person.

For why should my liberty be subject to the judgment of someone else’s conscience? 30 If I partake with thankfulness, why should I be denounced because of that for which I give thanks?

Verses 29 b and 30 can, indeed, cause some confusion, because having just said that one should not eat for the sake of another’s conscience, he then immediately asks why one’s liberty should be subject to someone else’s conscience.

This is not, however, an unsolvable problem. Paul is asserting two things to be true. The question is which one takes priority. He is asserting both that one could in good conscience eat meat that had been sacrificed to idols but one should refrain from doing so for the sake of the other person in that situation. But one need not accept that the other person’s conscience is correct and adopt their belief in general.

This is entirely consistent with what Paul has said of himself at the end of chapter 9, in his well known claim to have been ‘all things to all men’ saying.
9.19 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.
Paul asserts both his own freedom (‘I am free and belong to no one’) and how he has observed the rules of the different people he was with for the sake of advancing the gospel.

31 So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do everything for the glory of God. 32 Give no offense to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God, 33 just as I try to please everyone in everything I do, not seeking my own advantage, but that of many, so that they may be saved.

This again is the ethic Paul has been preaching: do not seek your own advantage but that of your brethren. This may mean not exercising one’s own rights if it comes at their expense.

11 1 Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.

This concluding statement, which the chapter divisions cut off from the discourse with which it belongs, gives Paul’s basic model for how a Christian ought to behave – behave like Paul (cf. 1 Cor. 4.16). In this case, he probably means specifically being all things to all men, offending neither Greeks or Jews, even if this means not exercising one’s own rights.

Paul knows the Scriptures of Israel (at least in Greek) well and also knows something of Greek rhetoric and Greek culture. But he is not a systematic theologian and is, in effect, writing a new constitution for a new kind of society – Gentile Christianity – that is really only an idea he has in his head. He is, effectively, trying to build it from scratch. Christian Jews, Jews who accepted Jesus as the foretold Messiah, but lived in a Jewish society following the Mosaic law, already had social structures in place and could retain them. With the Corinthian church, Paul is dealing with issues on the fly and trying to provide a theological justification for what he thinks they ought to be doing.

Best,

Ken
Last edited by Ken Olson on Fri Dec 10, 2021 5:28 am, edited 3 times in total.
lsayre
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Re: First Corinthians 10 (and just a bit of 11)

Post by lsayre »

Ken Olson wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:56 pm Paul knows the Scriptures of Israel (at least in Greek) well and also knows something of Greek rhetoric and Greek culture. But he is not a systematic theologian and is, in effect, writing a new constitution for a new kind of society – Gentile Christianity – that is really only an idea he has in his head. He is, effectively, trying to build it from scratch. Christian Jews, Jews who accepted Jesus ad the foretold Messiah, but lived in a Jewish society following the Mosaic law, already had social structures in place and could retain them. With he Corinthian church, Paul is dealing with issues on the fly and trying to provide a theological justification for what he thinks they ought to be doing.

Best,
Ken
That the Jamesian Church opposed Paul's efforts on several fronts is an indication of how little Paul actually cared about the existence of a purported human Jesus, or his closest potential living associates, acquaintances, and even potentially his family.

Hyam Maccoby laid out the case for a Paul who was by no means a Pharisee.
Charles Wilson
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Re: First Corinthians 10 (and just a bit of 11)

Post by Charles Wilson »

lsayre wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:25 pmHyam Maccoby laid out the case for a Paul who was by no means a Pharisee.
Hyam Maccoby, The Mythmaker: https://archive.org/details/B-001-001-7 ... 1/mode/2up

An Eye-Opener. My only real problem with Maccoby's Thesis is that he considers the "Paul" Character a Liar, Cheat and Thief AND he existed.
I could not go that far...

CW
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Irish1975
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Re: First Corinthians 10 (and just a bit of 11)

Post by Irish1975 »

Ken,

I wonder whether you acknowledge (1) actual contradictions in "authentic Paul," not just confusions or difficulties; and (2) any probable interpolations. If you're not willing to entertain those possibilities, then you and I will not agree about what the texts actually say. That's how it goes.

My impression is that you want to rescue the integrity of Paul's meat discourses in chs. 8 and 10, i.e., in accordance with the belief that Paul himself gave all of this instruction in a single letter written on a single occasion. You don't seem to consider the possibility that this epistle (or any of the seven authentic epistles) might be a patchwork of texts from different theological perspectives, i.e., different authors, all wanting to speak through the mouth of the great apostle.

There are countless interpretations of Paul that make everything cohere wonderfully, including the Pastorals and Acts, or 1 Th 2:14-16 or Galatians 2:7-8, etc. etc. If the dogma is that Paul was a great man, and "all things to all people," then why not? It's not hard to put lipstick on a pig. But if you know you are talking to people who can recognize pigs and lipstick, you should not expect them to be persuaded by arguments that exclude pigs and lipstick on principle.

Now to consider the text--

The teaching in chapter 8 is that eating sacrificed meat in the very temples is not sinful in itself, i.e., not a form of idolatry. It would be acceptable, irreproachable behavior but for the possible harm to weaker brethren, whose consciences might become defiled and their faith destroyed. This teaching is not compatible with the teaching in 10:1-22 that eating sacrificed meat per se is a κοινωνία τῶν δαιμονίων, a communion with demons. An apostle who taught that it was a communion with demons would not have written chapter 8.

But here is your interpretation:
He does not directly address [sc. in ch. 10] the implied argument of those ‘who have knowledge’ from chapter 8 that when they eat meat in the temple of an idol they are not, in fact, engaging in idol worship because they know no idol exists and there is no God but one (1 Cor. 8.4).

Paul is having none of it.
But it is Paul himself who provides and affirms this 'knowledge' in chapter 8 (even though he then goes on to limit its ethical import by appealing to the rule of love for the brethren). You're trying to avoid the idea of a contradiction in the epistle's teaching by foisting the apostle's teaching in chapter 8 onto the Corinthians. This is the first major problem I have with your interpretation.

Now for chapter 10.
If you are eating meat sacrificed to an idol in the temple of an idol with other people who are worshipping demons, then you are worshipping demons.
This is what you infer Paul is teaching in 10:1-22, but nowhere does he suggest this "worshipping with other people" notion. Instead, what he writes is that those who eat the sacrificed meat are sharers in the sacrifice, just as (per the Torah) the Aaronic priests of Israel-according-to-the-flesh eat of the meat that they sacrifice (Leviticus 6). The teaching of 10:1-22 is that eating the sacrificed meat is, eo ipso, communion with demons. Nowhere does he restrict this teaching to temple feasts.

The explicit subject matter of 10:14-22 is the eating of sacrificed meat, without qualification. You want to restrict the teaching here to actual participation at the temple feasts, and the mention of the "cup" and the "table" in v. 22 gives some basis for that. But the apostle doesn't actually clarify these distinctions in 10:1-22, the focus of which is the actual food and drink, the actual eating and drinking. The cup and the bread of the Lord in vv. 16 and 17 are significant as actual spiritual food, not as "worshipping together as Christians." In verse 18, it is the eating of sacrificed meat by Israel-according-to-the-flesh that is spoken of, not Israel's "community worship." In v. 20, it is the things they sacrifice (ἃ θύουσιν), the meat itself, not some "community worship" idea, that the apostle is talking about. There is no teaching that sacrificed meat becomes undemonic as soon as it carried into the marketplace or someone's private home.

It is only in vv. 23-33 that specific instructions about meat purchased in the marketplace or provided in homes are given. Notice the abrupt transition, where this passage begins with the apostle quoting himself from 1 Cor 6:12. This suggests that we are hearing from someone different at this point.

23 All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify. 24 Let no one seek his own good, but that of his neighbor. 25 Eat anything that is sold in the meat market without asking questions for conscience’ sake; 26 for the earth is the Lord’s, and all it contains. 27 If one of the unbelievers invites you and you want to go, eat anything that is set before you without asking questions for conscience’ sake. 28 But if anyone says to you, “This is meat sacrificed to idols,” do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for conscience’ sake; 29 I mean not your own conscience, but the other man’s; for why is my freedom judged by another’s conscience? 30 If I partake with thankfulness, why am I slandered concerning that for which I give thanks? 31 Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 32 Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God; 33 just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit but the profit of the many, so that they may be saved.

The import of these highlighted verses is that gratitude and creation faith and Christian freedom make it lawful to eat anything, and effectively annihilate the old Jewish purity laws about what one can lawfully eat. Suddenly the whole theological basis of the teaching has shifted away from the fear of idolatry and idol meat and demons that dominates 10:1-22. But a christian who heard only 10:1-22 in church would reasonably conclude that eating any sacrificed meat anywhere is a risk to their very salvation.

If there had been one and the same Paul writing this letter, it would have been so easy to say "don't go to temple feasts, where they worship demons; but you can still eat the sacrificed meat at home, since idols are nothing." What we get instead is a collection of at least three distinct teachings, three discourses (8; 10:1-22; 10:23-33) that don't agree with each other.
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Re: First Corinthians 10 (and just a bit of 11)

Post by gryan »

Re: The ideal audience for the text that says, "Consider Israel according to the flesh: Are not those who eat the sacrifices fellow partakers in the altar?" (1 Cor 10:8)

According to this article, Gentiles could eat meat at the Jerusalem Temple:

"Most temples in antiquity encouraged the respect and patronage of as many people as possible. It's simply good business. And again, in this respect, the Temple in Jerusalem was no different. Gentiles had an area within which they could penetrate the sacred precincts of the Temple. They were certainly permitted to give offerings.... The Temple was organized in terms of degrees of sacred space, and the most sacred space was occupied only by the Priest. But the gentiles, who could bring offerings, would pass it over so that eventually the offering would be offered by the Priest on behalf of the gentile who was making the offering."
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontlin ... emple.html

------
I wonder if the ideal audience of 1 Cor 10 considering "Israel according to the flesh" were gentiles imagining themselves eating meat at the Jerusalem temple.
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Irish1975
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Re: First Corinthians 10 (and just a bit of 11)

Post by Irish1975 »

Since the apostle is referring to a provision of the Torah (Leviticus 6, the priest eats the sacrifice), I take “Israel according to the flesh” as a reference to Israel under the Torah; i.e., not Herod’s temple per se.

I’m not a Torah expert, but I think most sacrificial meat is/was reserved for the Levitical priests, and only certain minor sacrifices could be eaten by the people.
gryan
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Re: First Corinthians 10 (and just a bit of 11)

Post by gryan »

Ken Olson wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:56 pm ... The food is just food. The idols are dumb objects. So what does he mean? He tells us in the next verse:

I imply that what [pagans/they] sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be partners with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.

Having clarified what he did not mean in v. 19 (the meat is nothing, the idols are nothing), Paul moves on to what he does mean: ‘what they (some manuscripts have: ‘the pagans’) sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God.’

The most controversial interpretive problem in this verse is who ‘they’ are. The word pagans (τὰ ἔθνη, literally ‘the nations’) found in many manuscripts may well be an interpretive gloss by a later scribe. There are several possibilities. The first is that, while the word pagans may be a later scribal gloss, that clarified the meaning of the verse, it may well have been correct as to what Paul meant. The second is that, since the chapter began with a discussion of the Israelites and some of them became idolaters (v.7), and the last group specifically mentioned in the chapter was the people of Israel in v. 18, ‘they’ may mean the people of Israel. Third, it could refer to Christians who participate in sacrifice.

All of these are possible. I think the third is the least likely. While Paul is most concerned that Christians not engage in sacrifice to idols, which is demon worship, he has been referring to Christians as ‘we’, meaning Christians in general including himself, and ‘you’ the ones engaged in problematic behavior. It seems likely that the third person ‘they’ indicates some other group which ‘you’ should not emulate or attach yourselves.

Neither does it seem that Israel is the most likely option. Despite the fact that Paul earlier in the chapter referred to some Israelites in the time of Moses engaging in idolatry, there is no warrant elsewhere in Paul’s letters for the idea that this is what the people of Israel do in general and as a whole. Also, the question ‘What do I imply then?’ in v. 19 seems to be concluding the examples just given of Christian and Jewish worship and drawing out a general lesson from them to be applied to idol worship.

I think, therefore, that Paul is indeed talking about pagan idolators in v. 20, both because pagans are generally regarded as idolaters by Jews (the terms are almost synonymous) and because Paul was speaking about Christians attending feasts in pagan temples and eating meat sacrificed to idols in 1 Cor. 8.10, so there is a context for that understanding in this letter.
Re: "they sacrifice to demons and not to God (δαιμονίοις καὶ οὐ Θεῷ)." 1 Cor 10:20

Cf. "They sacrificed to demons, and not to God (δαιμονίοις καὶ οὐ θεῷ); to gods whom they knew not: new and fresh gods came in, whom their fathers knew not." Duet 32:17

Should the parallel in Duet influence the interpretation of 1 Cor?
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Ken Olson
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Re: First Corinthians 10 (and just a bit of 11)

Post by Ken Olson »

gryan wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 9:49 am Re: "they sacrifice to demons and not to God (δαιμονίοις καὶ οὐ Θεῷ)." 1 Cor 10:20

Cf. "They sacrificed to demons, and not to God (δαιμονίοις καὶ οὐ θεῷ); to gods whom they knew not: new and fresh gods came in, whom their fathers knew not." Duet 32:17

Should the parallel in Duet influence the interpretation of 1 Cor?
Maybe, but I'm not sure how.

Would Deut. 32.17 help us to identify who 'they' (the subjects of the third person plural verb) who sacrifice to demons are? In the Deuteronomic passage, they are Israelites and they are sacrificing to recently introduced, foreign gods, unknown to their ancestors. Would this support to identification of 'they' in 1 Cor. 10.20 as Israelites on the grounds that if 'they' were recently converted pagans, then they were probably attending the sacrifices to idols or gods that were, if fact, known to their ancestors. I don't think so, because of what Paul says in 1 Cor. 8.6, that for us (Christians) there is one God, so by implication worship of another is incompatible with our belief, as he says again in 1 Cor. 10.21, 'You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.'

Would Deut. 32.17 help us to settle what the connection between idols, pagan gods, and demons is? Paul denies that idols are anything, so he would seem to be saying they are just dumb objects made by human hands (as Romans 1.22 too would seem to suggest). But then he says that what they sacrifice (presumably to idols, because that has been the subject of the discussion) they sacrifice to demons. Is he saying the idols represent the so-called gos, which are not really gods, but demons. Or merely that by engaging in worship not directed to the God of Israel, they are necessarily by that fact worshipping demons? It could be either, or something else, but I don't see how Deut. 32.17 helps us to see which.

Do you see a a way in which Deut. 32.17 helps to understand 1 Cor., especially v. 10.20?

Best,

Ken
gryan
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Re: First Corinthians 10 (and just a bit of 11)

Post by gryan »

While I ponder who "they" refers to, here is an extended quotation from the pen of the prolific C.K. Rothchild in an article she wrote for the 2020 Troy W. Martin Festschrift:

According to Conzelmann, Paul alludes to the Song of Moses (Duet 31:30-32:47) in this passage. Dueteronomy 32:17 LXX records that the Israelites "sacrificed to demons, not God--to deities they hand never known, to new ones recently arrived, whom their ancestors had not feared." Synonymous parallelism in the first part of this passage suggests that demons are gods. The last line of the passage, however, denies their existence. The abhorrent things actually possess not existence:

LXX Duet 32:17-21
They [the Israelites] made Him jealous with strange gods,
With abhorrent things they provoked him.
They sacrificed to demons not God (ἔθυσαν δαιμονίοις καὶ οὐ θεῷ),
To deities they had never known,
To new ones recently arrived,
Whom your ancestors had not feared.

...They made me jealous with what is not god, Provoked me with idols.

The passage illuminates only 1 Cor 10:19-21, but also 1 Cor 8:4-6. The point is that whatever pagans might claim, Moses, as monotheist, denies the existence of other gods (i.e., through the negative formulation of the Shema with which Paul emphatically agrees). Elsewhere Paul calls them "beings that are by nature not gods" --characterizing them as "elements" or principles" that are "weak" and "poor" (Gal 4:8). He views the problem as a category mistake. In short, what pagans worship as gods amount to no more than physical aspects of the material universe.

--C.K. Rothchild
Last edited by gryan on Fri Dec 24, 2021 4:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ken Olson
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Re: First Corinthians 10 (and just a bit of 11)

Post by Ken Olson »

gryan wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:13 am While I ponder who "they" refers to, here is an extended quotation from the pen of the prolific C.K. Rothchild in an article she wrote for the 2020 Troy W. Martin Festschrift:

The passage illuminates only 1 Cor 10:19-21, but also 1 Cor 8:4-6. The point is that whatever pagans might claim, Moses, as monotheist, denies the existence of other gods (i.e., through the negative formulation of the Shema with which Paul emphatically agrees). Elsewhere Paul calls them "beings that are by nature not gods" --characterizing them as "elements" or principles" that are "weak" and "poor" (Gal 4:8). He views the problem as a category mistake. In short, what pagans worship as gods amount to no more than physical aspects of the material universe.

--C.K. Rothchild
gryan,

I have not read Clare Rothchild on this particular issue, but I may have to. If we accept that her apparent conclusion about pagan gods in Paul - that they don't exist but are pagan misunderstandings of the physical elements of the universe, that still does not entirely answer the question about what it means it say that what they sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons. It seems that demons, or more broadly spiritual actors hostile to God's rule, do exist for Paul. The word 'demons' itself appears only in 1 Cor. 10.20-21 in the seven generally accepted Paulines (but also in 1 Tim 4.1), and this has been used by some (e.g., Lamar Cope) as supporting evidence to argue that 1 Cor. 10.1-22 is a non Pauline interpolation, though arguably an equivalents concept appears elsewhere in Paul (e.g., 'rulers' 1 Cor. 1.8, Rom. 8.38).

On a related note, I think Gal. 4.8 would count toward the Pauline authenticity of 1 Cor. 10.1-22:

Gal. 4.8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were in bondage to beings that by nature are no gods; 9 but now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and beggarly elemental spirits, whose slaves you want to be once more? 10 You observe days, and months, and seasons, and years! 11 I am afraid I have labored over you in vain. 12 Brethren, I beseech you, become as I am, for I also have become as you are.

Paul is arguing that those who became Christians but then relapse into or continue to observe non-Christian rituals lose their elect status, which is also (as I take it) the message of 1 Cor. 10.1-22 (esp. 'you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons' in 1 Cor. 10.21).

I've been working on a longer post responding to Irish1975 and discussing Cope's case, but it's unlikely I'll finish it before I head off to visit family for the holidays.

Best,

Ken
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