Richard Carrier on the Book of Revelation

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Giuseppe
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Richard Carrier on the Book of Revelation

Post by Giuseppe »

So dr. Carrier has answered to my question:

Revelation was written in the reign of Domitian (the 80s or 90s AD) and used Matthew as its base text. It is indeed an anti-Pauline document, but so is Matthew. And both were written in Greek, and thus for audiences outside Palestine. There is no evidence anyone was alive at that time who would know anything first-hand about the origins of Christianity, least of all the Pillars (they would be two generations gone by then), much less any who would ever have even heard of, much less read, Revelation (or Matthew for that matter). We also have no reactions to Revelation’s publication, so we have no idea how anyone responded to it anyway.

Revelation references no sources; in fact, it claims to have all its information from mystical visions, not any objective evidence at all. Someone, in other words, just dreamed all this (or was claiming to). And so far as we know it had no sources, other than “The Gospel according to Matthew,” which was simply an expanded redaction of the “Gospel according to Mark.” Revelation is therefore derivative and thus cannot corroborate anything. All it does is prove Matthew’s historicism existed at that time. Which we already know—from Matthew (and Mark, whose text is even earlier). It therefore can have no effect on the probability of historicity. Once the Gospels exist, it is already 100% expected there will exist texts expanding and riffing on them, like this, regardless of whether Jesus existed or not. So we are back to simply assessing the probability of the Gospels.

Nevertheless, Revelation is actually a little cagey about whether historicity is actually true, rather than symbolically represented. In Rev. 11 it sufficiently implies Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem; but in Rev. 12, Jesus is born in a lower heaven (in the vicinity of the moon), and soon whisked away to even higher levels of heaven, and seems never to leave there (in a manner that fits the Star Gospel that in OHJ I find in Ignatius and the Ascension of Isaiah). So it’s unclear which version of events the author believed actual and which merely allegorical. It could be both, depending on one’s level of initiation at the time, just as was the case for Osiris cult.

But regardless, since the author shows no sign of having any sources of information other than the Gospels we already know about, and his own imagination, it doesn’t matter. We can’t use it to prove anything in the Gospels is true. We can only use it to prove they were circulating by then, which we already knew, and thus already accounted for.

I confess that this answer is not so satisfying, since the idea that Revelation is based on Matthew seems improbable to me. So I think that the best defense of the Outer Space theory is still made by Paul-Louis Chouchoud, with his condition that in Revelation the Lamb is killed before the same foundation of the world. Now I understand better why Robert M. Price insists on that point: he has understood that Revelation dates to 70 and is pre-Gospel, differently from Carrier.

It is hard to think that the Christians hated the Roman empire only during the time Revelation was written. The hostility had to be there even before, and even more intense.
lsayre
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Re: Richard Carrier on the Book of Revelation

Post by lsayre »

The 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia Online claims that the first strata of Revelation is pure Jewish Apocalypticism. It finishes with these words:
The Epistles are, like the Gospel, Pauline in spirit and written for Pauline churches; the Book of Revelation remains, under its Christian cloak, a Jewish document.
https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/arti ... on-book-of
Last edited by lsayre on Sun Nov 07, 2021 6:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Richard Carrier on the Book of Revelation

Post by Giuseppe »

Who says that Revelation is a Jewish book has never explained what is the jewishness of a text where the name Jesus Christ appears.
Charles Wilson
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Re: Richard Carrier on the Book of Revelation

Post by Charles Wilson »

I have.
Use the Half hour of silence...:

Revelation 8:1 (RSV):

[1] When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.

...as an Anchor verse.

This is Queen Salome. Before this is "Immar/Immer", the Lamb who was standing as if slaughtered, an odd phrasing.
The Great Tribulation tells of Jannaeus in the mountains after The Abomination of Desolation, brought on by the Greek General Demetrius Eucerus.
The Authorship is AFTER Domitian (See: Atwill for list of Domitian Clues.) since Domitian was the Alpha and Omega, "Emperor" before Vespasian arrived in Rome and Emperor after the death of Titus.)

Oh, it's a Jewish Document all right. It was "captured" early on, however, and rewritten for the glory of the Flavians, as most of the Jewish Documents were.

CW
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billd89
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Book of Revelation Timeframe

Post by billd89 »


Revelation was written in the reign of Domitian (the 80s or 90s AD) and used Matthew as its base ... “The Gospel according to Matthew,” which was simply an expanded redaction of the “Gospel according to Mark.”

Logically, following Carrier here:
If Revelation was written in 95 AD, then gMatt should be several decades older, and gMark several decades older again. If there's a Q document, again: several decades earlier. This also assumes material circulated fairly quickly within the Xian communities.

So, approximately: Q document c.40 AD, gMark c.55-65 AD, gMatt c.60-80 AD and Revelation 80-95 AD. That looks conventional, no? Another note: if the Author of Rev in 95 AD was Age 60, he was born after Jesus death ("33 AD") and probably could not have known Paul; therefore, he is '3rd generation'.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Richard Carrier on the Book of Revelation

Post by Giuseppe »

I am going to read a second time Couchoud on the Book of Revelation.

He notes (correctly, I think) that the two witnesses are yes crucified, but crucified post-mortem, à la Jewish way. Hardly, therefore, Russell Gmirkin cannot be correct when he says that the two witnesses were emulating (or had to emulate in a prophecy) a Roman crucifixion of Jesus.
Last edited by Giuseppe on Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Richard Carrier on the Book of Revelation

Post by Giuseppe »

Hence the Lamb also, of which the fate is obviously reflected in the fate of the two witnesses crucified post-mortem, is himself more probably conceived as immolated and not nailed on a Roman cross.

The Book of Revelation is therefore more expected under the mythicism than on historicity, but absolutely not for the weak reasons described by Carrier, who, in comparison to Couchoud, is as the night and the day (frankly).
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Re: Richard Carrier on the Book of Revelation

Post by RParvus »

Giuseppe,

How have you managed to overlook Joseph Turmel? His L’Apocalypse (1938) argued that the original version of Revelation was written by a Jew and inspired by the Jewish Revolt in 132. For him the two witnesses (Rev. 11:2) are Bar Kochba and Rabbi Akiva. Turmel held that the book was subsequently sprinkled with Christian interpolations by Jewish Christians for whom Jesus not Bar Kochba was the Messiah.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Richard Carrier on the Book of Revelation

Post by Giuseppe »

RParvus wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 9:58 am Giuseppe,

How have you managed to overlook Joseph Turmel? His L’Apocalypse (1938) argued that the original version of Revelation was written by a Jew and inspired by the Jewish Revolt in 132. For him the two witnesses (Rev. 11:2) are Bar Kochba and Rabbi Akiva. Turmel held that the book was subsequently sprinkled with Christian interpolations by Jewish Christians for whom Jesus not Bar Kochba was the Messiah.
Hi Roger,
as to the two witnesses, I was aware about the Volkmar's and Couchoud's interpretation about them as being reduced (caustically) in Mark in the role of the two Boanerges, in virtue of their power of throwing fire from their mouth (note the similar role of the two 'Sons of Thunder' who want to punish by fire the Samaritan village and so going against the will of the Good Samaritan).

So, if Mark is based on Revelation, then Revelation can't be so late as Turmel claims, unless Mark also was written after the 135 CE.
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Irish1975
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Re: Richard Carrier on the Book of Revelation

Post by Irish1975 »

My impression of Carrier’s approach to chronology — but I’m happy to be proven wrong — is that he is not relying on strictly historical considerations. It is essentially polemical, for the sake of argument. He figures that if he concedes early chronology to historicists and apologists, his mythicist arguments will have more weight against them. Or something like that. (One consequence of 1st century dating for historicist texts is that it renders the testimonies of Tacitus and Josephus essentially irrelevant, because dependent on published Christian stories.)

My memory of OTHJ is that he was constantly saying, “but let’s concede an early date just to make my argument all the stronger…”

But here is what I’d to know. On what historically principled basis does he argue that gMatthew was circulating in the late 1st century, or that Revelation is based on Matthew, or that Revelation is a 1st century text?
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