Richard Carrier on the Book of Revelation

[Giuseppe]

How have you managed to overlook Joseph Turmel? His L’Apocalypse (1938)

Roger, where can I find that Turmel's book of only 45 pages ? Unfortunately, it is unobtainable. Can you describe his salient points (or even better: upload it on archive.org) ?
Thank you!

Giuseppe,

The bad news is that I have not been able to find my copy of “L’Apocalypse”; the good news is that Neil Godfrey (Vridar) has come to the rescue. He has put in to obtain a copy by interlibrary loan. It could take a couple of months, but eventually you should be able to read Turmel’s ”L’Apocalypse” itself and not have to rely on what I can recall of it.

The latter is very good news, thanks to both you and Neil.

In whiletime, I will digitalize some chapters of interest from Histoire des Dogmes volumes 1-6 and share them on archive.org, too.

[klewis]

[See next post]

[klewis]

I agree with Carrier that Revelation was written at the time of Domition, I believe that the last sections written (Rev 13 see https://drive.google.com/file/d/1t96PhK ... vw85S/view).

I see nothing in the book of Revelation in which the author copied from any NT documents. The vast majority, over 90% of Revelation can be found in the Hebrew Scriputes alone. This is not to say that they are not found in other writings such as John (whom they have pierced) and Matthew (earthquakes) but it is to say that by this time this would be common Christian lore. It is like ascribing Trump as the Anointed one to a particular writer when someone heard it at church a thousand miles away.

The processs in which he wrote Revelation is via parallel formation from several texts in the Hebrew Bible and 1 Enoch. The process is consistent, testable, and repeatable. Here is an example of how he did it using Ezekiel and Isaiah as his starter material.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/12JZcor ... uSXCx/view

[MrMacSon]

The vast majority, over 90% of Revelation can be found in the Hebrew Scriptures alone ...

The process in which 'he' wrote Revelation is via parallel formation from several texts in the Hebrew Bible and 1 Enoch. The process is consistent, testable, and repeatable. Here is an example of how he did it using Ezekiel and Isaiah as his starter material.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/12JZcor ... uSXCx/view

[and] see https://drive.google.com/file/d/1t96PhK ... vw85S/view).
.

This is very useful. Thank you.

It's something we see in many / most if not all books of the NT ie. the predominance of tropes / themes either based on or related to OT ones, even if written in a different context in the NT

I agree with Carrier that Revelation was written at the time of Domitian ...

Alleged persecutions under Domitian are likely untrue.^ Whether there was any 'Christianity' in the first century is either still up for debate or wishful thinking (including by Carrier) ^see viewtopic.php?p=92479#p92479

This is not to say that they* are not found in other writings such as John (whom they have pierced) and Matthew (earthquakes) but it is to say that by this time this would be common Christian lore ...
.

* they? The same passages from the Hebrew scriptures?

I believe that the last sections written (Rev 13 ... [ ... ] ...
see https://drive.google.com/file/d/1t96PhK ... vw85S/view)

??

(eta: I'd already bought your book, How John Wrote the Book of Revelation: From Concept to Publication* but need to read it

(also available via Google Play)

[klewis]

Revelation is a book that is a pain to date. No matter what time one is in history, there is always something that someone can connect to a passage in Revelation. I did not base mine on persecutions of Domitian. I based it upon how John incorporates Isaiah chapter 23 into his writing.

Keep in mind, the Christians back then and the Christians today have a persecution complex. Today, many Fundamentalists will weave a tale that socialism is at the gates and if they do not stop it Christianity will cease to be. CRT is out to get them and they must stop it at all cost. The purpose of apocalyptic teaching is to imagine how badly the world can turn.

There are a few passages in Revelation that can be linked to the NT but many of them are also linked to the Hebrew Scriptures. For example Gospel of John is the only gospel to point out that Jesus was pierced and Revelation has the same imagery. They are both derived from Zechariah 12:10. Whether John, the author of Revelation used the Gospel of John as the source of his inspiration, we will never know. What we do know is that the author of Revelation incorporated Zechariah into the book of Revelation in a methodical fashion.

Zechariah 12:10	John 19:37	Revelation 1:7
I will pour on David’s house, and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they will look to me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for his only son, and will grieve bitterly for him, as one grieves for his firstborn.	Again another Scripture says, “They will look on him whom they pierced.”	Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, including those who pierced him. All the tribes of the earth will mourn over him. Even so, Amen.

Thanks for the purchase of the book. I hope you find it useful in understanding Revelation. It is definitely unique, and the most exhaustive, in its approach to how the book of Revelation was written.