neilgodfrey wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:20 am
Is a first-century provenance for any Christian source or record beyond dispute?
No.
But talking about "beyond dispute" is asking for a negative outcome. Without a firmly dated manuscript in the first century, we can dispute the provenance of any literary text as being something other than first century. This is not unique to Christian sources.
We don't need manuscripts to establish provenance. The point about sources for Christianity is that there have been reasonable (scholarly) arguments for all to be assigned to the second century.
I'm not saying that therefore Christianity started in the second century. I was simply trying to follow through on what I thought was the point of the OP -- re "indisputable" facts. Even Paul's letters have been dated to the second century by reasonable scholarly argument.
Aleph One wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 2:28 pm
I think the info from Pliny the Younger's Letter to Emperor Trajan should fit this bill as well anything. We learn that in 110 AD there was a notable Christian presence, some of whom having been adherents for 20 years, in the Roman province of Bithynia. Christians were persecuted (though not systematically) under the Roman prohibition on secret clubs. The Christians referred to themselves as such (or at least others referred to them by that name) and they participated in some kind of communal meal and pre-dawn ritual.
In favor of the authenticity of the Christian reference in Pliny is the appearance of a relative of his as a key figure in the Acts of Peter tradition. I am not saying that the Acts of Peter is 'authentic' in the broadest sense of the word. But rather it knows of history and develops a narrative connecting known Christians to the apostle Peter who may or may not have been historical. I feel that the effort to put make 'authenticity' absolute and inflexible works against us in this time period. The Pliny letter is likely authentic IMHO. It is not absolutely certainly authentic.
Aleph One wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 2:28 pm
I think the info from Pliny the Younger's Letter to Emperor Trajan should fit this bill as well anything. We learn that in 110 AD there was a notable Christian presence, some of whom having been adherents for 20 years, in the Roman province of Bithynia. Christians were persecuted (though not systematically) under the Roman prohibition on secret clubs. The Christians referred to themselves as such (or at least others referred to them by that name) and they participated in some kind of communal meal and pre-dawn ritual.
