Indisputable Historical Facts About Early Christianity

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Giuseppe
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Re: Indisputable Historical Facts About Early Christianity

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  • I agree with Vermeiren/Doudna about the historical Jesus being Jesus b. Sapphat.
  • I agree with G. Solomon that the Pilate bit is derived from the false Samaritan prophet slain by Pilate. Which means: if Pilate had not punished the false Samaritan prophet, then the name "Pilate" would have not become the most mentioned name of the history in absolute (because of the recitation of the Creed)
  • I agree with Klinghardt about Mcn preceding even Mark.
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rakovsky
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Re: Indisputable Historical Facts About Early Christianity

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- Archaeologists have found Christian texts or art carbon-dated or otherwise scientifically dated to the 1st two centuries AD.

I'm hesitant to call that indisputable, but it's generally the kind of thing people agree on. For example, we have papyrus pieces from that time period with passages from gospels or otherwise about Jesus.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Indisputable Historical Facts About Early Christianity

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Peter Kirby wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:41 pm Regardless, I have generally found that people do accept that the works of Eusebius were actually by him, and most do not dance in the moonlight of suspicion when it comes to the history of early Christianity from the fourth century and forward.
As a matter of actual practice, the ante-Nicene texts of Justin, Irenaeus, Clement, Origen, Hippolytus, and Tertullian (and a few others from the 2nd half of the 2nd century and from the third century) are also generally accepted.

I'd say roughly 175 CE (pre-Irenaeus) is where "the great divergence" of theories begins. Before, pictures vary greatly. After, not so much. Irenaeus references so much that is so recognizable about Christianity ever since (e.g. four gospels), but the texts before Irenaeus have much greater variety. The text of Irenaeus itself is available in many places only in Latin, but there is a serendipitously ancient Greek fragment that attests to its antiquity.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Indisputable Historical Facts About Early Christianity

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Peter Kirby wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:57 pm
Peter Kirby wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:41 pm Regardless, I have generally found that people do accept that the works of Eusebius were actually by him, and most do not dance in the moonlight of suspicion when it comes to the history of early Christianity from the fourth century and forward.
As a matter of actual practice, the ante-Nicene texts of Justin, Irenaeus, Clement, Origen, Hippolytus, and Tertullian (and a few others from the 2nd half of the 2nd century and from the third century) are also generally accepted.
I think Eusebius is generally likely to be sound, though his works embellish things before and during his time (eg. accounts of Constantine), and I wouldn't be surprised if his works have been embellished 'after the fact'.

Stuart said recently he thought Justin is 'layered', which would be interesting to tease out.

Stephan thinks Tertuallian's Adversus Marcionem is a third edition of a collection of earlier works but I wonder if some, at least, of his works, such as that alleged third of those editions, could also have been written after Tertuallian (and left in his name). As may be the case for others of around his time.

Origen might also be in the same boat. There are some who queries whether an Origen was split into two characters or if one of his supposed teachers, a certain Ammonius [Saccas], had been (or both, or neither). With one of the split characters being an embellished Christianised version (see Origen the Pagan). And of course Origen was also accused of heresy (which may just be a reflection of still evolving Christian doctrine & theology -

The chief accusations against Origen’s teaching are the following: making the Son inferior to the Father and thus being a precursor of Arianism, a 4th-century heresy that denied that the Father and the Son were of the same substance; spiritualizing away the resurrection of the body; denying hell, a morally enervating universalism; speculating about pre-existent souls and world cycles; and dissolving redemptive history into timeless myth by using allegorical interpretation. None of these charges is altogether groundless.
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Or ... cal-System

Origen studied the Old Testament in great depth,* and his greatest work was a Jewish one, the Hexapla. the current historical record of him is so full it almost seems he cannot have done all that he is said to have done.
  • McGuckin, John Anthony (2004). "The Life of Origen (ca. 186–255)". In McGuckin, John Anthony (ed.). The Westminster Handbook to Origen. The Westminster handbooks to Christian theology. Louisville, Kentucky: Westminster John Knox Press. p.13. ISBN 9780664224721.

Peter Kirby wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:57 pm ... Irenaeus references so much that is so recognizable about Christianity ever since (e.g. four gospels), but the texts before Irenaeus have much greater variety. The text of Irenaeus itself is available in many places only in Latin, but there is a serendipitously ancient Greek fragment that attests to its antiquity.
Yes, a lot focuses on Irenaeus who seems to have been a key gatekeeper ... and a gaslighter: as many 'gnostic' scholars say, he significantly misrepresented what Christianity was before his time and nearly everyone has drunk his kool-Aid ever since.

Is Irenaeus supposed to have written in Greek?
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MrMacSon
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Re: Indisputable Historical Facts About Early Christianity

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rakovsky wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:50 pm - Archaeologists have found Christian texts or art carbon-dated or otherwise scientifically dated to the 1st two centuries AD.
It'd be good to have specifics ...

rakovsky wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:50 pm I'm hesitant to call that indisputable, but it's generally the kind of thing people agree on. For example, we have papyrus pieces from that time period with passages from gospels or otherwise about Jesus.
Palaeography is, iiuc, fairly unreliable especially for Christian texts.

Brent Nongbri's work, such as his 2020 God's Library: The Archaeology of the Earliest Christian Manuscripts, and other publications - https://mf.academia.edu/BrentNongbri - may be the benchmark on this, eg. -
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Indisputable Historical Facts About Early Christianity

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MrMacSon wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:36 pmStuart said recently he thought Justin is 'layered', which would be interesting to tease out.
Yes, that would be interesting to see.
MrMacSon wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:36 pmIs Irenaeus supposed to have written in Greek?
Yes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Against_H ... (Irenaeus)
"The earliest manuscript fragment of Against Heresies, P. Oxy. 405, dates to around 200 AD."

It's in Greek.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Indisputable Historical Facts About Early Christianity

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MrMacSon wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:36 pm Origen might also be in the same boat. There are some who queries whether an Origen was split into two characters or if one of his supposed teachers, a certain Ammonius [Saccas], had been (or both, or neither). With one of the split characters being an embellished Christianised version (see Origen the Pagan). And of course Origen was also accused of heresy (which may just be a reflection of still evolving Christian doctrine & theology -

The chief accusations against Origen’s teaching are the following: making the Son inferior to the Father and thus being a precursor of Arianism, a 4th-century heresy that denied that the Father and the Son were of the same substance; spiritualizing away the resurrection of the body; denying hell, a morally enervating universalism; speculating about pre-existent souls and world cycles; and dissolving redemptive history into timeless myth by using allegorical interpretation. None of these charges is altogether groundless.
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Or ... cal-System

Origen studied the Old Testament in great depth,* and his greatest work was a Jewish one, the Hexapla. the current historical record of him is so full it almost seems he cannot have done all that he is said to have done.
  • McGuckin, John Anthony (2004). "The Life of Origen (ca. 186–255)". In McGuckin, John Anthony (ed.). The Westminster Handbook to Origen. The Westminster handbooks to Christian theology. Louisville, Kentucky: Westminster John Knox Press. p.13. ISBN 9780664224721.
Who has argued for the suspicions regarding Origen that you have mentioned?
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Indisputable Historical Facts About Early Christianity

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MrMacSon wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:44 pm
rakovsky wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:50 pm - Archaeologists have found Christian texts or art carbon-dated or otherwise scientifically dated to the 1st two centuries AD.
It'd be good to have specifics ...
Previously compiled specifics...

Here are some links regarding paleography, epigraphy, and archaeology with respect to Christianity in the first four centuries AD.

1. Paleography and Papyrology

http://www.pappal.info/
https://archive.org/stream/handbookofgr ... 9/mode/2up
https://archive.org/stream/greeklatin00 ... 3/mode/2up
https://archive.org/stream/cu3192402449 ... 9/mode/2up
https://archive.org/stream/griechischep ... 3/mode/2up
http://g.christianbook.com/g/pdf/hp/1565630378-ch01.pdf
http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes/article_071.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxyrhynchus_Papyri
http://theosophical.wordpress.com/2011/ ... us-papyri/
https://archive.org/stream/oxyrhynchusp ... 7/mode/2up
https://archive.org/stream/oxyrhynchusp ... 3/mode/2up
https://archive.org/stream/oxyrhynchusp ... 5/mode/2up
https://archive.org/stream/oxyrhynchusp ... 9/mode/2up
https://archive.org/stream/oxyrhynchusp ... 4/mode/2up
http://books.google.com/books?id=nPVHbS ... 90&f=false
http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/st ... OxyPap.htm
http://books.google.com/books?id=nPVHbS ... 04&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=gsoFMT ... 22&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=oWyej_ ... 22&f=false
https://www.academia.edu/1135088/Grenfe ... d_Straight
http://bibletranslation.ws/manu.html
http://people.uncw.edu/zervosg/Papyrolo ... papyri.pdf
http://rosetta.reltech.org/TC/v17/TC-2012-PR-Royse.pdf
https://www.academia.edu/3667498/Early_ ... laeography
http://larryhurtado.wordpress.com/2013/ ... -analysis/
http://scribalhabitsofpapyrus46.wordpre ... liography/
http://evangelicaltextualcriticism.blog ... sment.html
http://vridar.org/2013/03/08/new-date-f ... pyrus-p52/
http://books.google.com/books?id=Z35H7P ... 52&f=false
http://people.uncw.edu/zervosg/papyrolo ... misuse.pdf
http://www.biblical-data.org/P-46%20Oct%201997.pdf
http://larryhurtado.files.wordpress.com ... apyri1.pdf
http://khazarzar.skeptik.net/books/titles.pdf
http://people.uncw.edu/zervosg/Papyrolo ... raries.pdf
http://www.skypoint.com/members/waltzmn/

2. C-14 Radiocarbon Dating

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/lostg ... ating.html
http://uanews.org/story/ua-radiocarbon- ... as-genuine
http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes/C ... ospels.htm

3. Papyri from the persecutions of the mid-third century

http://www.papyrology.ox.ac.uk/POxy/VEx ... stian.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus_Oxyrhynchus_3035
http://papyri.info/ddbdp/p.oxy;43;3119
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/2 ... 3086054777
http://books.google.com/books?id=w59JAA ... li&f=false
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POxy_1464
https://archive.org/stream/oxyrhynchusp ... 1/mode/2up

4. Papyri from the persecutions of the early fourth century

http://religion.princeton.edu/main/facu ... 20JECS.pdf
http://books.google.com/books?id=oUkzAQ ... 73&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=t9eWOh ... 01&f=false
http://163.1.169.40/cgi-bin/library?e=d ... 6b201ce785
http://papyri.info/ddbdp/p.oxy;31;2601
http://books.google.com/books?id=96I3AA ... on&f=false
http://163.1.169.40/cgi-bin/library?e=d ... fe40685706
http://papyri.info/ddbdp/bgu;16;2673
http://163.1.169.40/cgi-bin/library?e=d ... 1d0b664c73
http://papyri.info/ddbdp/p.oxy;33;2665
http://books.google.com/books/about/Gre ... oSAQAAIAAJ

5. A non-theological fragment of Julius Africanus dated to the mid-third century

https://archive.org/stream/greeklatin00 ... 2/mode/2up
http://mq.edu.au/pubstatic/public/download/?id=45134
http://www.bibliotheca-classica.org/sit ... kahane.pdf
http://books.google.com/books?id=9Ngkld ... fo&f=false

6. Epigraphy and Archaeology (general)

http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes/e ... _habit.htm
http://books.google.com/books?id=0-ovhY ... es&f=false
http://books.google.com/books/about/Ant ... tI9Cpyl3kC
http://www.atheistnexus.org/forum/topic ... aeological
http://www.bibleinterp.com/opeds/tsa368001.shtml
http://www.religion.ucsb.edu/faculty/th ... r-Tuna.pdf
http://guides.lib.cua.edu/content.php?p ... id=1436064
https://archive.org/stream/christianarc ... 1/mode/2up
https://archive.org/stream/christianepi ... 7/mode/2up
https://archive.org/stream/trattatodiep ... 3/mode/2up
http://edh-www.adw.uni-heidelberg.de/inschrift/suche (Latin database)
http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/main (Greek database)

7. Inscriptions from Phyrgia and Lykaonia

http://mama.csad.ox.ac.uk/monuments/MAMA-XI-082.html
http://mama.csad.ox.ac.uk/monuments/MAMA-XI-044.html
http://mama.csad.ox.ac.uk/monuments/MAMA-XI-085.html
http://mama.csad.ox.ac.uk/monuments/MAMA-XI-122.html
http://mama.csad.ox.ac.uk/monuments/MAMA-XI-095.html
http://mama.csad.ox.ac.uk/monuments/MAMA-XI-164.html
http://grbs.library.duke.edu/article/do ... 8411/4747‎
http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptio ... okid%3D612
http://books.google.com/books?id=CNHgAM ... ry&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=lXpGAA ... os&f=false
http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes/article_074.htm

8. Inscriptions and Art from Rome

http://diglib.library.vanderbilt.edu/ac ... l?RC=54382
https://archive.org/stream/christianepi ... 0/mode/2up
https://www.academia.edu/4299182/Jewish ... _catacombs
https://www.academia.edu/4295346/Radioc ... us_in_Rome
https://www.academia.edu/4299091/Furthe ... us_in_Rome
https://archive.org/stream/monumentsofe ... 6/mode/2up
http://books.google.com/books?id=PWdzlU ... 22&f=false
http://depts.drew.edu/jhc/AbrahamsenOrante.pdf
https://archive.org/details/romasotterraneao00nort

9. Inscriptions from Rome (argued to be Valentinian)

https://www.academia.edu/2702572/A_Seco ... Via_Latina
http://books.google.com/books?id=vOoxGm ... na&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=3XxxkE ... sm&f=false

10. Alexamenos Graffito from Rome (early third century or before)

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/enc ... ffito.html
http://www.textexcavation.com/alexamenos.html
https://www.academia.edu/4735706/The_Horse_Head_Demon
https://www.academia.edu/2069395/The_Pa ... quarie_Uni

11. Crucifixion gems

http://classics.mfab.hu/talismans/cbd/815
https://www.academia.edu/1787622/The_Crucifixion
https://www.academia.edu/1788713/The_Co ... _Antiquity
http://phdiva.blogspot.com/2011/08/earl ... ixion.html
http://books.google.com/books?id=ddCAxg ... em&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=BVzVUQ ... em&f=false
http://www.carotta.de/subseite/texte/ar ... kos_en.pdf
http://ifpeakoilwerenoobject.blogspot.c ... art-2.html
http://rogerviklund.wordpress.com/2011/ ... n-english/
http://bedejournal.blogspot.com/2004/07 ... ified.html
http://hypotyposeis.org/weblog/2006/08/ ... image.html
http://hypotyposeis.org/weblog/2006/08/ ... n-gem.html

12. Inscriptions from Ostia

https://www.academia.edu/1992190/Late_A ... _Augustine
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/etd/d/2008/to ... m58633.pdf

13. Inscriptions from Crete and Greece

http://www.ascsa.edu.gr/pdf/uploads/hesperia/147076.pdf
http://www.ascsa.edu.gr/pdf/uploads/hesperia/146824.pdf
https://www.google.com/search?q=christi ... 3&ie=UTF-8

14. Dura Europos (ca. 256)

https://www.academia.edu/1619001/New_Te ... Baptistery
http://books.google.com/books?id=swtI9C ... em&f=false
https://archive.org/stream/MN41439ucmf_ ... 3/mode/2up
http://brbl-legacy.library.yale.edu/pap ... d=DPg%2024
http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes/article_072.htm

15. Megiddo (recent discovery, significance debated)

http://home.planet.nl/~slofs018/Megiddo.htm
http://www.hadashot-esi.org.il/report_d ... mag_id=111
http://earlychristianwritings.com/info/ ... s-2008.pdf

16. Inscription of Abercius (Christian inscription ca. 200)

http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes/article_073.htm
http://books.google.com/books?id=56AN2e ... os&f=false
https://archive.org/stream/christianins ... 4/mode/2up
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/abercius.html
https://archive.org/stream/diegrabschri ... 5/mode/2up

17. Inscriptions of Diogenes, Moundane, and Hedia

http://books.google.com/books?id=93mfDk ... 22&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=CNHgAM ... on&f=false

18. Epitaph of Julius Eugenius (of Maximinus Daia's persecution ca. 311)

http://earlychristianwritings.com/info/ ... graphy.pdf
http://books.google.com/books?id=j2dAY4 ... us&f=false

19. Legal Inscription about Chrestians (?) under Septimius Severus (193 - 211)

http://edh-www.adw.uni-heidelberg.de/ed ... 16&lang=en
davidmartin
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Re: Indisputable Historical Facts About Early Christianity

Post by davidmartin »

The one undisputable fact about the thing is that it split into multiple sects each claiming to be the thing
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MrMacSon
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Re: Indisputable Historical Facts About Early Christianity

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Peter Kirby wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:26 am
MrMacSon wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:36 pm Origen might also be in the same boat. There are some who queries whether an Origen was split into two characters or if one of his supposed teachers, a certain Ammonius [Saccas], had been (or both, or neither). With one of the split characters being an embellished Christianised version (see Origen the Pagan). And of course Origen was also accused of heresy (which may just be a reflection of still evolving Christian doctrine & theology -
Who has argued for the suspicions regarding Origen that you have mentioned?

1. Ilaria Ramelli, Origen the Christian Middle/Neoplatonist: New Arguments for a Possible Identification, Journal of Early Christian History Vol. 1, Issue 1, 2011: pp.98-130.

Abstract
On the basis of a close analysis of the sources and of new arguments I support the identification of Origen the Christian philosopher-theologian with Origen the Platonist. My thesis is that it is perfectly possible—even if not necessary—to refer all available sources on Origen the Neoplatonist to Origen the Christian, and to hypothesise one and the same author, Origen the Christian Platonist: more specifically, a Christian philosopher between Middle and Neoplatonism. This identification is made more probable by Eusebius' attestation that Origen the Christian was celebrated as a great philosopher even by pagans. This is hopefully an important contribution to research on Origen, Patristic philosophy, and Middle and Neoplatonism.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10. ... 1.11877233


2. Mark J Edwards, One Origen or Two? The Status Quaestionis, Symbolae Osloenses (Norwegian Journal of Greek and Latin Studies) 89 (2015): 81–103

Abstract
It has generally been assumed that there were two Origens in the early third century, both of whom were taught by Ammonius Saccas, the Alexandrian teacher of Plotinus. In recent years, it has become more common to maintain that there was only one Origen. Hermann Dörrie's theory that there were two Origens, each taught by a different Ammonius, has enjoyed little favour, and some have denied the existence of the peripatetic Ammonius, proposed as a possible tutor for the Christian Origen. The first part of this article shows that the existence of two Ammonii is accepted by all scholars who are familiar with the evidence of Philostratus, Lives of the Sophists 2.27. The second points out that the identification of the two Origens raises chronological difficulties which are not always recognized in modern treatments of this question. The rest of the paper, responding to recent studies by Tobias Böhm and Ilaria Ramelli, argues that the teachings ascribed to “Origen” by later Neoplatonists are not sufficiently convergent with those of the Christian Origen to justify the conclusion that there was only one man of this name.


3. Ilaria L.E. Ramelli Origen's Allegoresis of Plato's and Scripture's Myths, 2016, in Religious Competition in the Greco-Roman World, edited by Nathaniel P. DesRosiers, Lily C. Vuong, 2016: p.85ff.

Porphyry's account of Origen the Neoplatonist account of Homer corresponds to Origin the Christian's attitude, which again suggest they're the same person. In his extent Greek works Origen refers to Homer, mentioning him more than thirty times, never in his biblical commentaries or homilies, but only in Against Celsius, where his interlocutor is a “pagan” Middle Platonist. This is consistent with the division of sources* with respect to Origen’s Christian and philosophical works, the former cited by Christians, the latter by Neoplatonists. The author, however, was the same.

* (I would consider the works have indeed been divided to create two characters and 'the Christian Origen' might have been embellished with works by others)


4. Ilaria L.E. Ramelli, Origen and the Platonic Tradition, Religions 2017, 8(2): p.21

Abstract
This study situates Origen of Alexandria within the Platonic tradition, presenting Origen as a Christian philosopher who taught and studied philosophy, of which theology was part and parcel. More specifically, Origen can be described as a Christian Platonist. He criticized “false philosophies” as well as “heresies,” but not the philosophy of Plato. Against the background of recent scholarly debates, the thorny issue of the possible identity between Origen the Christian Platonist and Origen the Neoplatonist is partially addressed (although it requires a much more extensive discussion); it is also discussed in the light of Origen’s formation at Ammonius’s school and the reception of his works and ideas in “pagan” Platonism. As a consequence, and against scholarly perspectives that tend to see Christianity as anti-Platonism, the final section of this paper asks the question of what is imperial and late antique Platonism and, on the basis of rich evidence ,suggests that this was not only “pagan” institutional Platonism

Full text online: https://www.mdpi.com/2077-1444/8/2/21/htm (a pdf version is also available)


Perhaps
5. Elizabeth DePalma Digeser, “The Usefulness of Borderlands Concepts in Ancient History: The Case of Origen as Monster,” in Globalizing Borderland Studies in Europe and North America. Edited by Michael North and John Lee. Lincoln: University of Nebraska, 2016, pp. 15–32.


6. Also, in a very small way, three previous posts by me
  1. viewtopic.php?p=95701#p95701
  2. viewtopic.php?p=99837#p99837
  3. viewtopic.php?p=95744#p95744
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