Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

rgprice wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:16 pm To me, a big issue is that of the various officer positions, such a bishops, etc. that Paul mentions. It seems that many people take these to be Christian inventions, and thus signs of a mature or developed church structure. But I don't see this as the case. More likely, Paul was dealing with established associations, which already had officer positions. The existence of officers says nothing about the maturity of the Christian movement, because these officers were already in place from the existing associations. It was something more like going around to Boy Scout troops or VA halls and converting those groups. In such a case, the existing hierarchy would stay in place and the "bishops", etc. that Paul was talking to were the officers that were already in place in the associations before they had anything to do with Paul or the worship of Jesus. In other words, Paul wasn't building these organizations from scratch.

rgprice wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:31 am So actually its not bishops that Paul mentions, but deacons (Phil 1:1).

Jax wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:39 am ^ how about captains? https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... E%B9%CF%82

Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:51 am

Jax wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:39 am ^ how about captains? https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... E%B9%CF%82

The term was very general (someone who "oversees" something, which is literally what the morphemes mean), and only context would tell you whether it should be more specific than that.

rgprice wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:31 am So actually its not bishops that Paul mentions, but deacons (Phil 1:1).

Another interesting aspect of 1 Cor 11 is v19, where it reads: "19 For there also have to be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you."

Richard Last argues that "factions" is a poor translation, and that this should read "elections" instead. Last argues that this passage has long been misinterpreted as part of a denial that the Corinthian assembly was a standing association that operated like a typical Greek association, as opposed to a "house church" as Christian tradition holds.

hakeem wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:35 am

rgprice wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:31 am So actually its not bishops that Paul mentions, but deacons (Phil 1:1).

Another interesting aspect of 1 Cor 11 is v19, where it reads: "19 For there also have to be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you."

Richard Last argues that "factions" is a poor translation, and that this should read "elections" instead. Last argues that this passage has long been misinterpreted as part of a denial that the Corinthian assembly was a standing association that operated like a typical Greek association, as opposed to a "house church" as Christian tradition holds.

Justin mentioned a president [singular] and deacons[plural] of the Church --not a bishop and deacons.

There is a distinction between a bishop and deacons of a Church.

Christian writers claim Peter, Paul, Clement, Linus, Cletus and others were bishops of Rome when no such position existed in the Church up to at least the time of Justin Martyr c 138-161 CE

Justin's First Apology LXV

And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion.

Jax wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:09 amWhat's the Greek word being used here?

Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:59 am

Jax wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:09 amWhat's the Greek word being used here?

For president? This one.

Jax wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:36 am

Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:59 am

Jax wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:09 amWhat's the Greek word being used here?

For president? This one.

Proistemi eh? Whatever I wonder ever happened to the Overseers known to Paul?