1 Cor 11: "when you come together as a church"

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rgprice
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1 Cor 11: "when you come together as a church"

Post by rgprice »

This is an interesting passage:

17 Now in giving this next instruction I do not praise you, because you come together not for the better, but for the worse. 18 For, in the first place, when you come together as a ekklēsia, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part I believe it. 19 For there also have to be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you. 20 Therefore when you come together it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper, 21 for when you eat, each one takes his own supper first; and one goes hungry while another gets drunk. 22 What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the ekklēsia of God and shame those who have nothing? What am I to say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I do not praise you.

33 So then, my brothers, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. 34 If anyone is hungry, have him eat at home, so that you do not come together for judgment. As to the remaining matters, I will give instructions when I come.


v22 seems to imply that the Corinthians do not meet in houses. Paul is telling them to have their meals at home before they congregate to participate in the Lord's Supper, which is to be ceremonial, not an actual meal. It also indicates that when they have meals in their assembly, only those who pay can eat. Those who cannot afford it don't eat a meal, therefore they are put to shame as they sit by while others feast.

This contradicts a lot of the standard image of Pauline congregations put forward by mainstream scholars, who generally claim that meetings took place in houses and that the poor were cared for. This indicates the opposite -- that they were meeting in an non-residential building, such as a synagogue or other civic meeting place, and that the poor weren't being provided for, they were being left out and embarrassed. Paul's solution wasn't to care for them, it was to avoid the optics by eating your meal at home so you didn't have to eat a meal in front of someone who was poor and starving.

The Eucharist was likely provided out of funds from the ekklēsia, and thus provided for the poor, but that provision didn't extend beyond the ceremonial meal. This is all typical of associations of the period, and nothing that stands out as any different from what would have been hundreds of other groups doing the exact same type of thing for different associations.
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Jax
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Re: 1 Cor 11: "when you come together as a church"

Post by Jax »

I think that fee based ekklesia along the lines of burial clubs were the norm back then. Like you note, monies were paid out by members, probably at each gathering partly for the food and drink at the meeting unless the group had a wealthy patron that would show off by hosting the gathering.

Unless you were gathering for a specific reason like worshiping a god like Apollo at a particular shrine, any old place, house or otherwise, would do as a meeting place. Depended on the weather more than anything I suspect.
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Re: 1 Cor 11: "when you come together as a church"

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On house churches in early Christianity see or example 1 Corinthians 16:19
The churches of Asia send you greetings. Aquila and Prisca, together with the church in their house, send you hearty greetings in the Lord.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: 1 Cor 11: "when you come together as a church"

Post by Peter Kirby »

rgprice wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:20 amv22 seems to imply that the Corinthians do not meet in houses.
I don't completely agree, but yes it is one possibility here.
rgprice wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:20 am This indicates the opposite -- that they were meeting in an non-residential building, such as a synagogue or other civic meeting place, and that the poor weren't being provided for, they were being left out and embarrassed. Paul's solution wasn't to care for them, it was to avoid the optics by eating your meal at home so you didn't have to eat a meal in front of someone who was poor and starving.

The Eucharist was likely provided out of funds from the ekklēsia, and thus provided for the poor, but that provision didn't extend beyond the ceremonial meal. This is all typical of associations of the period, and nothing that stands out as any different from what would have been hundreds of other groups doing the exact same type of thing for different associations.
The archaeology of the sites used by other mystery religions seems to have them frequently associated with "guilds," professional societies, which did establish their own meeting halls.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associati ... cient_Rome
The collegia opificum ascribed to Numa[2] include guilds of weavers, fullers, dyers, shoemakers, doctors, teachers, painters, and other occupations, as listed by Ovid in the Fasti.[3] Ovid says they were in origin associated with the cult of Minerva, the goddess of handiwork. Plutarch mentions flute-players, who were connected with the cult of Jupiter on the Capitol, as well as guilds of smiths, goldsmiths, tanners.

Though these guilds may not have had a religious purpose, like all early institutions they were associated with some religious cult, and in most cases the cult of Minerva. Almost all these collegia had their religious centre and business headquarters at her temple on the Aventine Hill. When a guild of poets was instituted during the Second Punic War, this too had its meeting-place in the same temple.

The purpose of the guild in each case was no doubt to protect and advance the interests of the trade, but little information for them exists until the age of Cicero, when they reappear in the form of political clubs (collegia sodalicia or compitalicia) chiefly with the object of securing the election of candidates for magistracies. The political collegia were suppressed by a senatus consultum in 64 BC, revived by Clodius six years later, and finally abolished by Julius Caesar, as dangerous to public order.

The principle of the trade guild reasserts itself under the Empire, and is found at work in Rome and in every municipal town. Though the right of permitting such associations belonged to the government, these trade guilds were recognized by the state as being instituted "ut necessariam operam publicis utilitatibus exhiberent" ("so that they might perform the necessary work of public 'utilities'," or useful public works).[4]

Every kind of trade and business throughout the Empire seems to have had its collegium, as is shown by the inscriptions collected in the Corpus Inscriptionum Latinarum from any Roman municipal town. These inscriptions provide important evidence for the life and work of the lower orders of the municipales. The primary object was no doubt still to protect the trade, but as time went on they tended to become associations for feasting and enjoyment, and more and more to depend on the munificence of patrons elected with the object of eliciting it.[5] How far they formed a basis or example for the guilds of the early Middle Ages is a difficult question (see Guild). Eventually, the trade associations supported the individual, lost as he was in the vast desert of the empire, some little society and enjoyment in life, and the certainty of funeral rites and a permanent memorial after death.
In this regard, it may be more than a tiny detail that Paul was a tanner. Perhaps Paul was able to get the tanners in several cities to convert their meeting halls into places of worship for Christ. This would have followed existing norms of trade associations being connected to a particular deity, and it would have been far less costly than creating a new site solely for the purpose of Christian worship.

Maybe the Christian novelty was to open up to others who weren't in the trade? In that case, the people in the trade who were dues paying members may have expected to continue to eat their full meal as they always had.
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Re: 1 Cor 11: "when you come together as a church"

Post by Peter Kirby »

Jax wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:41 am Unless you were gathering for a specific reason like worshiping a god like Apollo at a particular shrine, any old place, house or otherwise, would do as a meeting place. Depended on the weather more than anything I suspect.
Perhaps. But there was an expectation of paying respects to a deity even when meeting for ostensibly secular functions. Given this existing tradition and existing associations, any guild that converted its patron deity over to Christ would at the same time become a site for regular meetings.
rgprice
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Re: 1 Cor 11: "when you come together as a church"

Post by rgprice »

To me, a big issue is that of the various officer positions, such a bishops, etc. that Paul mentions. It seems that many people take these to be Christian inventions, and thus signs of a mature or developed church structure. But I don't see this as the case. More likely, Paul was dealing with established associations, which already had officer positions. The existence of officers says nothing about the maturity of the Christian movement, because these officers were already in place from the existing associations. It was something more like going around to Boy Scout troops or VA halls and converting those groups. In such a case, the existing hierarchy would stay in place and the "bishops", etc. that Paul was talking to were the officers that were already in place in the associations before they had anything to do with Paul or the worship of Jesus. In other words, Paul wasn't building these organizations from scratch.
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Jax
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Re: 1 Cor 11: "when you come together as a church"

Post by Jax »

rgprice wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:16 pm To me, a big issue is that of the various officer positions, such a bishops, etc. that Paul mentions. It seems that many people take these to be Christian inventions, and thus signs of a mature or developed church structure. But I don't see this as the case. More likely, Paul was dealing with established associations, which already had officer positions. The existence of officers says nothing about the maturity of the Christian movement, because these officers were already in place from the existing associations. It was something more like going around to Boy Scout troops or VA halls and converting those groups. In such a case, the existing hierarchy would stay in place and the "bishops", etc. that Paul was talking to were the officers that were already in place in the associations before they had anything to do with Paul or the worship of Jesus. In other words, Paul wasn't building these organizations from scratch.
This is one reason that I felt that Paul is addressing retired Roman military veterans. That and the fact that Corinth and Philippi were both veteran settlement sites. As was Troas.

He even calls himself and another "fellow solders" to the audience that he is writing to. Not to mention the militaristic imagery in his letters.
hakeem
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Re: 1 Cor 11: "when you come together as a church"

Post by hakeem »

If one wants to know where Christians met I suggest one should use the works of Justin Martyr.

It is easily seen that Christian did gather together at one place according to Justin.

Justin's First Apology LXVII
And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things.

Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons.


And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need.

But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly........

Justin explains with perfect clarity-not the ambiguous BS as found in the so-called Pauline Epistles.

By the way, there were no bishops of the Church up to the time of Justin.
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Jax
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Re: 1 Cor 11: "when you come together as a church"

Post by Jax »

hakeem wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:42 pm If one wants to know where Christians met I suggest one should use the works of Justin Martyr.

It is easily seen that Christian did gather together at one place according to Justin.

Justin's First Apology LXVII
And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things.

Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons.


And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need.

But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly........

Justin explains with perfect clarity-not the ambiguous BS as found in the so-called Pauline Epistles.

By the way, there were no bishops of the Church up to the time of Justin.
One thing that always annoys me about this study, is the lack of a common vernacular when it comes to naming things. Agreed?

I feel that the original Greek word should take precedence when an unknown translation may not represent the true intent of the authors.

How feel you?
rgprice
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Re: 1 Cor 11: "when you come together as a church"

Post by rgprice »

So actually its not bishops that Paul mentions, but deacons (Phil 1:1).

Another interesting aspect of 1 Cor 11 is v19, where it reads: "19 For there also have to be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you."

Richard Last argues that "factions" is a poor translation, and that this should read "elections" instead. Last argues that this passage has long been misinterpreted as part of a denial that the Corinthian assembly was a standing association that operated like a typical Greek association, as opposed to a "house church" as Christian tradition holds.
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