1 Cor 11: "when you come together as a church"

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Jax
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Re: 1 Cor 11: "when you come together as a church"

Post by Jax »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:54 am
Jax wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:36 am
Ben C. Smith wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:59 am
Jax wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:09 amWhat's the Greek word being used here?
For president? This one.
Proistemi eh? Whatever I wonder ever happened to the Overseers known to Paul?
Well, they are literally all over Ignatius and are also mentioned in 1 Clement, the Acts of the Apostles, the Pastorals, the Didache, the Shepherd of Hermas, and the Martyrdom of Polycarp.
What about Irenaeus? Do the writings under that name favor President or Overseer? If any mention is made at all that is.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: 1 Cor 11: "when you come together as a church"

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Jax wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:10 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:54 am
Jax wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:36 am
Ben C. Smith wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:59 am
Jax wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:09 amWhat's the Greek word being used here?
For president? This one.
Proistemi eh? Whatever I wonder ever happened to the Overseers known to Paul?
Well, they are literally all over Ignatius and are also mentioned in 1 Clement, the Acts of the Apostles, the Pastorals, the Didache, the Shepherd of Hermas, and the Martyrdom of Polycarp.
What about Irenaeus? Do the writings under that name favor President or Overseer? If any mention is made at all that is.
With Irenaeus it is all about the succession of bishops. I do not know offhand whether he also uses the term "president."
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Jax
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Re: 1 Cor 11: "when you come together as a church"

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:24 pm
Jax wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:10 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:54 am
Jax wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:36 am
Ben C. Smith wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:59 am

For president? This one.
Proistemi eh? Whatever I wonder ever happened to the Overseers known to Paul?
Well, they are literally all over Ignatius and are also mentioned in 1 Clement, the Acts of the Apostles, the Pastorals, the Didache, the Shepherd of Hermas, and the Martyrdom of Polycarp.
What about Irenaeus? Do the writings under that name favor President or Overseer? If any mention is made at all that is.
With Irenaeus it is all about the succession of bishops. I do not know offhand whether he also uses the term "president."
So he uses Episkopos? Wonder where Justin got proistemi from?
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Jax
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Re: 1 Cor 11: "when you come together as a church"

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In another thread SA wrote this
Marcion of course was a naucleros. We don’t have any historical anecdotes about Marcus Granius Marcellus other than the brief anecdote in Tacitus. Nevertheless we can certainly imagine that Marcion was only a naucleros because of his association with Ostia. Lampe points to guilds of naucleri in the city writing “[a]lready at Marcion's time, the arcade behind the theater in Ostia housed the offices of corporations, which had beautiful mosaics of ships in the floors.”


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7822&start=20#p121515

An example of a guild adopting the Christ cult perhaps?
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Jax
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Re: 1 Cor 11: "when you come together as a church"

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Jax wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:35 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:24 pm
Jax wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:10 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:54 am
Jax wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:36 am

Proistemi eh? Whatever I wonder ever happened to the Overseers known to Paul?
Well, they are literally all over Ignatius and are also mentioned in 1 Clement, the Acts of the Apostles, the Pastorals, the Didache, the Shepherd of Hermas, and the Martyrdom of Polycarp.
What about Irenaeus? Do the writings under that name favor President or Overseer? If any mention is made at all that is.
With Irenaeus it is all about the succession of bishops. I do not know offhand whether he also uses the term "president."
So he uses Episkopos? Wonder where Justin got proistemi from?
Seems like Hegesippus favors Episkopos as well.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: 1 Cor 11: "when you come together as a church"

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Jax wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:45 pmSeems like Hegesippus favors Episkopos as well.
Yep. "President" (or "ruler" or "the one who stands before or presides") is the odd one out, pretty much across the board.
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Re: 1 Cor 11: "when you come together as a church"

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Probably relevant:

Romans 12.8: 8 ...or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads [ὁ προϊστάμενος], with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

1 Thessalonians 5.12: 12 But we request of you, brethren, that you appreciate those who diligently labor among you, and have charge [προϊσταμένους] over you in the Lord and give you instruction....

1 Timothy 5.17: 17 The elders who rule [προεστῶτες] well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching.

Refer also to 1 Timothy 3.4-5, 12; Titus 3.8, 14 for different uses of the same verb/participle.
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DCHindley
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Re: 1 Cor 11: "when you come together as a church"

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rgprice wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:20 am This is an interesting passage:

17 Now in giving this next instruction I do not praise you, because you come together not for the better, but for the worse. 18 For, in the first place, when you come together as a ekklēsia, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part I believe it. 19 For there also have to be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you. 20 Therefore when you come together it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper, 21 for when you eat, each one takes his own supper first; and one goes hungry while another gets drunk. 22 What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the ekklēsia of God and shame those who have nothing? What am I to say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I do not praise you.

33 So then, my brothers, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. 34 If anyone is hungry, have him eat at home, so that you do not come together for judgment. As to the remaining matters, I will give instructions when I come.

v22 seems to imply that the Corinthians do not meet in houses. Paul is telling them to have their meals at home before they congregate to participate in the Lord's Supper, which is to be ceremonial, not an actual meal. It also indicates that when they have meals in their assembly, only those who pay can eat. Those who cannot afford it don't eat a meal, therefore they are put to shame as they sit by while others feast.

This contradicts a lot of the standard image of Pauline congregations put forward by mainstream scholars, who generally claim that meetings took place in houses and that the poor were cared for. This indicates the opposite -- that they were meeting in an non-residential building, such as a synagogue or other civic meeting place, and that the poor weren't being provided for, they were being left out and embarrassed. Paul's solution wasn't to care for them, it was to avoid the optics by eating your meal at home so you didn't have to eat a meal in front of someone who was poor and starving.

The Eucharist was likely provided out of funds from the ekklēsia, and thus provided for the poor, but that provision didn't extend beyond the ceremonial meal. This is all typical of associations of the period, and nothing that stands out as any different from what would have been hundreds of other groups doing the exact same type of thing for different associations.
I think you'll find upon further research that the earliest form of the Eucharist was not a form of worship of the body and blood of Jesus Christ but rather a pot luck meal put on to celebrate the bounty that would fill the earth when the kingdom of God is established on earth. They called it an "agape" meal, meaning it was a "selfless love" offering with no strings, gratis, free free free. The better off could afford to put on these meals.

In the Greek speaking world of Roman times, these kinds of meals were often held in mausoleums supposedly to honor the revered dead. The sponsor was considered a funerary society, otherwise the assembly - even for such an innocent free meal potluck - would be deemed an illegal political meeting and be suppressed.

Check out Voluntary Associations in the Greco-Roman World.

I addressed this issue in an old post here:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=211&p=3447&hilit=agape#p3447

In this other thread, I examine the issue in detail:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=211&p=2887&hilit=agape#p3131

DCH
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Jax
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Re: 1 Cor 11: "when you come together as a church"

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:02 pm Probably relevant:

Romans 12.8: 8 ...or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads [ὁ προϊστάμενος], with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

1 Thessalonians 5.12: 12 But we request of you, brethren, that you appreciate those who diligently labor among you, and have charge [προϊσταμένους] over you in the Lord and give you instruction....

1 Timothy 5.17: 17 The elders who rule [προεστῶτες] well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching.

Refer also to 1 Timothy 3.4-5, 12; Titus 3.8, 14 for different uses of the same verb/participle.
Interesting. 1 Thess 4:18-5:22 and the pastorals are all contested.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: 1 Cor 11: "when you come together as a church"

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Jax wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:28 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:02 pm Probably relevant:

Romans 12.8: 8 ...or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads [ὁ προϊστάμενος], with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

1 Thessalonians 5.12: 12 But we request of you, brethren, that you appreciate those who diligently labor among you, and have charge [προϊσταμένους] over you in the Lord and give you instruction....

1 Timothy 5.17: 17 The elders who rule [προεστῶτες] well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching.

Refer also to 1 Timothy 3.4-5, 12; Titus 3.8, 14 for different uses of the same verb/participle.
Interesting. 1 Thess 4:18-5:22 and the pastorals are all contested.
Especially the Pastorals. Just giving the rounded out view of things.
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