1 Cor 11: "when you come together as a church"

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GakuseiDon
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Re: 1 Cor 11: "when you come together as a church"

Post by GakuseiDon »

Cicero writes about something similar to the Eucharist, though in disparaging terms:
https://oll.libertyfund.org/title/cicer ... f-the-gods

When we speak of corn as Ceres, and of wine as Liber, we use, it is true, a customary mode of speech, but do you think that any one is so senseless as to believe that what he is eating is the divine substance? And as for those whom you assert to have attained from the human state to the divine, it is for you to give an explanation of how that could have happened, or why it has ceased to happen, and I shall be glad to be informed.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: 1 Cor 11: "when you come together as a church"

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Interesting reference in the Shepherd, too: "the elders who preside over the church [τῶν πρεσβυτέρων τῶν προϊσταμένων τῆς ἐκκλησίας]" (Hermas, The Shepherd, Vision 2.4.3).
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Jax
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Re: 1 Cor 11: "when you come together as a church"

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:30 pm
Jax wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:28 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:02 pm Probably relevant:

Romans 12.8: 8 ...or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads [ὁ προϊστάμενος], with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

1 Thessalonians 5.12: 12 But we request of you, brethren, that you appreciate those who diligently labor among you, and have charge [προϊσταμένους] over you in the Lord and give you instruction....

1 Timothy 5.17: 17 The elders who rule [προεστῶτες] well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching.

Refer also to 1 Timothy 3.4-5, 12; Titus 3.8, 14 for different uses of the same verb/participle.
Interesting. 1 Thess 4:18-5:22 and the pastorals are all contested.
Especially the Pastorals. Just giving the rounded out view of things.
I understand. How do people feel about Romans 12:8? is that passage contested at all? It just seems convenient that προϊσταμένους etc should show up in texts right around the time of Justin.
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Jax
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Re: 1 Cor 11: "when you come together as a church"

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:34 pm Interesting reference in the Shepherd, too: "the elders who preside over the church [τῶν πρεσβυτέρων τῶν προϊσταμένων τῆς ἐκκλησίας]" (Hermas, The Shepherd, Vision 2.4.3).
Nice. When do people think that Shepherd was written?
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Jax
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Re: 1 Cor 11: "when you come together as a church"

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^I love that I can actually read the Greek line that you provided. :thumbup:
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: 1 Cor 11: "when you come together as a church"

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Jax wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:41 pm ^I love that I can actually read the Greek line that you provided. :thumbup:
Ha ha, thank my professors. They were sticklers, one and all. (In the best way.)
Jax wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:40 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:34 pm Interesting reference in the Shepherd, too: "the elders who preside over the church [τῶν πρεσβυτέρων τῶν προϊσταμένων τῆς ἐκκλησίας]" (Hermas, The Shepherd, Vision 2.4.3).
Nice. When do people think that Shepherd was written?
Century II sometime, usually. Occasionally someone floats century I. Irenaeus quotes a line from it as scripture. Tertullian disapproves of it. The Muratorian Canon tries to tell us when it was written, but the results are a bit confusing.
perseusomega9
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Re: 1 Cor 11: "when you come together as a church"

Post by perseusomega9 »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:34 pm Interesting reference in the Shepherd, too: "the elders who preside over the church [τῶν πρεσβυτέρων τῶν προϊσταμένων τῆς ἐκκλησίας]" (Hermas, The Shepherd, Vision 2.4.3).
That's one more of several you provided where president is used along side elder but it's elder that became the ecclesiastical office.
hakeem
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Re: 1 Cor 11: "when you come together as a church"

Post by hakeem »

Justin’s claim that there was a leader of Christians who was called the president is corroborated by Lucian in the Death of Peregrine.

Lucian wrote the Death of Peregrine sometime in the mid to late 2nd century and was a contemporary of Justin.

The Death of Peregrine
It was now that he came across the priests and scribes of the Christians, in Palestine, and picked up their queer creed.

I can tell you, he pretty soon convinced them of his superiority; prophet, elder, ruler of the Synagogue--he was everything at once; expounded their books, commented on them, wrote books himself.
They took him for a God, accepted his laws, and declared him their president.

There were no bishops of the Church in the time of Lucian and Justin.

The clerical term Bishop appears to be an anachronism.

The mention of bishops in the so-called Pauline Epistles is another piece of evidence that the letters were written very late at least after the time of Lucian or after c 180 CE.
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