Galatians 1:21-24 : churches of Judea

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Jax
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Re: Galatians 1:21-24 : churches of Judea

Post by Jax »

rgprice wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:46 am @Jax What robertj said.

Also, Id' recommend: Pagan Monotheism in Late Antiquity, particularly: The Cult of Theos Hypsistos between Pagans, Jews, and Christians.

Stephen Mitchell makes a strong case that Gentile worshipers of the Jewish God had been around since the 2nd century BCE and that Gentile worship of "the Highest God" had been increasing in Asia Minor well before Christianity.
You don't happen to remember what source material that these authors site for this do you?

Thanks.

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rgprice
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Re: Galatians 1:21-24 : churches of Judea

Post by rgprice »

Its an anthology. From Mitchell's contribution.

SELECT BIBLIOGRAPHY
1. Oracles
LANE Fox, R., Pagans and Christians (London, 1985), 168–261.
ROBERT, L., ‘Trois oracles de la Théosophie et un prophète d’Apollon’, Comptes
rendus de l’Académie des inscriptions et belles lettres 1969, 568–99.
——‘Un oracle gravé à Oinoanda’, Comptes rendus de l’Académie des inscriptions
et belles lettres (1971), 597–619.
2. Hypsistarians
SCHÜRER, E., ‘Die Juden im bosporanischen Reich und die Genossenschaft der
sebëmenoi qeìn Îyiston ebendaselbst’, Sitzungsberichte der preussischen
Akademie zu Berlin (1897), 200–25.
3. The Cult of Theos Hypsistos
COOK, A. B., Zeus: A Study in Ancient Religion, II. 2 (Cambridge, 1925), 873–90.
CUMONT, F., ‘Hypsistos’, RE IX.1 (1916), 444–50.
RICL, M., ‘Hosios kai Dikaios. Première partie: Catalogue des inscriptions’,
Epigraphica Anatolica, 18 (1991), 1–70; ‘Seconde partie: Analyse’, Epigraphica
Anatolica, 19 (1992), 71–103.
SCHWABL, H., ‘Zeus’, RE Suppl. XII (1974), 1477–80.
USTINOVA, Y., The Supreme Gods of the Bosporus: The Celestial Goddess and the
Most High God (forthcoming).
4. Chronological Method
MACMULLEN, R., ‘The Epigraphic Habit’, American Journal of Philology, 103
(1982), 233–46.
5. Theos Hypsistos and the Jews
AMELING, W., ‘Die jüdischen Gemeinden im antiken Kleinasien’, in R. Jütte and
Abraham P. Kustermann (eds.), Jüdische Gemeinden und Organisationsformen
von der Antike bis zur Gegenwart (1996), 29–55.
SCHÜRER, E., A History of the Jewish People in the time of Jesus Christ. New
English edition edited by F. Millar and G. Vermes, III. 1 (1986), 150–76.
SIMON, M., ‘Theos Hypsistos’, Ex Orbe Religionum. Studia Geo. Widengren
(1972), 372–85.
TREBILCO, P., Jewish Communities in Asia Minor (1991).
The Cult of Theos Hypsistos 147
6. God-fearers
FELDMAN, L. H., Jew and Gentile in the Ancient World (1993), 342–82.
MITCHELL, S., ‘Wer waren die Gottesfürchtigen?’, Chiron, 28 (1998).
REYNOLDS, J. M., and Tannenbaum, R., Jews and Godfearers at Aphrodisias.
Cambridge Philological Society, supplementary volume 12 (1987).
7. Christians
MITCHELL, S., Anatolia: Land, Men, and Gods in Asia Minor, ii (1993), 37–51,
96–108.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Galatians 1:21-24 : churches of Judea

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Jax wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:11 pmYou don't happen to remember what source material that these authors site for this do you?
If you are wondering about sources for a Jewish presence in Asia from before the traditional dates for Paul, I imagine the following sources will come into play sooner or later. I have specified the time frame for each datum by reference to the main historical figure stated to have been involved with each:

Ptolemy VII Euergetes II

1 Maccabees 15.16-23: 16 Lucius, consul of the Romans unto king Ptolemy, greetings. 17 The Jews’ ambassadors, our friends and confederates, came unto us to renew the old friendship and league, being sent from Simon the high priest, and from the people of the Jews. 18 And they brought a shield of gold of a thousand pound. 19 We thought it good therefore to write unto the kings and countries, that they should do them no harm, nor fight against them, their cities, or countries, nor yet aid their enemies against them. 20 It seemed also good to us to receive the shield of them. 21 If therefore there be any pestilent fellows, that have fled from their country unto you, deliver them unto Simon the high priest, that he may punish them according to their own law. 22 The same things wrote he likewise unto Demetrius the king, and Attalus, to Ariarathes, and Arsaces, 23 And to all the countries and to Sampsames, and the Lacedemonians, and to Delus, and Myndus, and Sicyon, and Caria, and Samos, and Pamphylia, and Lycia, and Halicarnassus, and Rhodus, and Aradus, and Cos, and Side, and Aradus, and Gortyna, and Cnidus, and Cyprus, and Cyrene.

Cicero

From Cicero, For Flaccus 28: As gold, under pretense of being given to the Jews, was accustomed every year to be exported out of Italy and all the provinces to Jerusalem, Flaccus issued an edict establishing a law that it should not be lawful for gold to be exported out of Asia. And who is there, O judges, who cannot honestly praise this measure? The senate had often decided, and when I was consul it came to a most solemn resolution that gold ought not to be exported. But to resist this barbarous superstition were an act of dignity, to despise the multitude of Jews, which at times was most unruly in the assemblies in defense of the interests of the republic, was an act of the greatest wisdom. [Jewish Encyclopedia, L. Valerius Flaccus: Proconsul of Asia Minor in 62-61 B.C. He is notorious in the history of the Jews for having seized for the public treasury the Temple money intended for Jerusalem; thus, at Apamea, nearly 100 pounds of gold through the Roman knight Sextus Caesius; at Laodicea, more than 20 pounds through L. Peducaeus; at Adramyttium, an unknown sum through the legate Cnaeus Domitius; at Pergamon, a small sum, as probably not many Jews were living there at that time. Accused of extortion during his term of office, Flaccus was defended by Cicero (59), himself opposed to the Jews. Cicero justified Flaccus in reference to the Temple money by using a clever oratorical device to show that his edict, to the effect that no money should be sent out of Asia, was a law general in its application, and that the subordinates of Flaccus, who were all men of good repute, had proceeded openly and not in secret (Cicero, “Pro Flacco,” § 28). The outcome of the suit is not known. It is not likely, however, that Flaccus was punished.]

Crassus

Josephus, Antiquities 14.7.2 §110-113: 110 And let no one wonder that there was so much wealth in our temple, since all the Jews throughout the habitable earth, and those that worshiped God, nay, even those of Asia and Europe, sent their contributions to it, and this from very ancient times. 111 Nor is the largeness of these sums without its attestation; nor is that greatness owing to our vanity, as raising it without ground to so great a height; but there are many witnesses to it, and particularly Strabo of Cappadocia, who says thus: 112 “Mithridates sent to Cos, and took the money which queen Cleopatra had deposited there, as also eight hundred talents belonging to the Jews.” 113 Now we have no public money but only what appertains to God; and it is evident that the Asian Jews removed this money out of fear of Mithridates; for it is not probable that those of Judea, who had a strong city and temple, should send their money to Cos; nor is it likely that the Jews who are inhabitants of Alexandria should do so neither, since they were ill no fear of Mithridates.

Caligula

From Philo, Embassy to Gaius 33: Nevertheless, though he was well acquainted with the disposition of the emperor, and how implacable and inexorable he was in his anger, he still had himself some sparks of the Jewish philosophy and piety, since he had long ago learned something of it by reason of his eagerness for learning, and had studied it still more ever since he had come as governor of the countries in which there are vast numbers of Jews scattered over every city of Asia and Syria; or partly because he was so disposed in his mind from his spontaneous, and natural, and innate inclination for all things which are worthy of care and study. .... For in all the particulars in which men are enjoined by the laws, and in which they have it in their power to show their piety and loyalty, my nation is inferior to none whatever in Asia or in Europe, whether it be in respect of prayers, or of the supply of sacred offerings, or in the abundance of its sacrifices, not merely of such as are offered on occasions of the public festivals, but in those which are continually offered day after day; by which means they show their loyalty and fidelity more surely than by their mouth and tongue, proving it by the designs of their honest hearts, not indeed saying that they are friends to Caesar, but being so in reality. .... So that if my native land is, as it reasonably may be, looked upon as entitled to a share in your favor, it is not one city only that would then be benefited by you, but ten thousand of them in every region of the habitable world, in Europe, in Asia, and in Africa, on the continent, in the islands, on the coasts, and in the inland parts.

This information is all about Asia Minor in general. What I have not done is to hunt down information about the Galatian region in particular.
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Re: Galatians 1:21-24 : churches of Judea

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I think what Jax is getting at is my statement that organized assemblies of Gentiles worshiping the Jewish God would have existed prior to Paul and even prior to the first century. This is something I take issue with in regard to Bart Ehrman also, because he, like most people, assumes that organized groups of worshipers of Jesus Christ couldn't possibly existed prior to the late first century.

But this is not at all the case. First of all, Ehrman and most others act as if these organization would have to have sprung up from nowhere upon the death of Jesus. This is clearly absurd. These would have been existing assemblies of worshipers, to whom it was announced that "Christ has risen", even if we assume a real Jesus.

Take the Galatians for example. Paul was traveling in Galatia and apparently fell ill and was taken in by them. But they weren't worshipers of Jesus to begin with. Paul was taken in by some congregation of God-fearers, whom he told about Jesus. But that organization already existed. It may well have already had a hierarchy and even some communication channel with Jerusalem prior to ever seeing Paul or ever having heard about Jesus.

That congregation could have been attending synagogue and reading the Jewish scriptures and participating in festivals and donating the the temple for 100 years by the time Paul came along for all we know. But, when Paul came along he told them that the distinction between them and "official Jews" was no more, and they didn't need to get circumcised in order to be considered full heirs to the covenant of Abraham. And they didn't need to worry about following Jewish dietary laws, etc. anymore either. When Paul did that, other Jews in the region said, "WTF?! That guy's crazy. If you don't get circumcised then don't call yourself a Jew and no, you aren't a part of the covenant." So they said, sorry Paul, we're going on with circumcision and following the laws so we can be part of the Jewish community. To which Paul freaked out and wrote the letter to the Galatians, seeing that his efforts had been in vain.
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Re: Galatians 1:21-24 : churches of Judea

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rgprice wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:15 pm I think what Jax is getting at is my statement that organized assemblies of Gentiles worshiping the Jewish God would have existed prior to Paul and even prior to the first century.
Ah, yes, I think you are right.
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Re: Galatians 1:21-24 : churches of Judea

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Part of that quote from Josephus is still relevant, since it is one of the literary passages proffered for the existence of Godfearers: πάντων τῶν κατὰ τὴν οἰκουμένην Ἰουδαίων καὶ σεβομένων τὸν θεὸν ἔτι δὲ καὶ τῶν ἀπὸ τῆς Ἀσίας καὶ τῆς Εὐρώπης εἰς αὐτὸ συμφερόντων ἐκ πολλῶν πάνυ χρόνων. The construction does make it look like "those who worship God" (σεβομένων τὸν θεόν) are "in addition" to (καί) "all the Jews of the habitable earth" (πάντων τῶν κατὰ τὴν οἰκουμένην Ἰουδαίων).
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Jax
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Re: Galatians 1:21-24 : churches of Judea

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rgprice wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:15 pm I think what Jax is getting at is my statement that organized assemblies of Gentiles worshiping the Jewish God would have existed prior to Paul and even prior to the first century. This is something I take issue with in regard to Bart Ehrman also, because he, like most people, assumes that organized groups of worshipers of Jesus Christ couldn't possibly existed prior to the late first century.

But this is not at all the case. First of all, Ehrman and most others act as if these organization would have to have sprung up from nowhere upon the death of Jesus. This is clearly absurd. These would have been existing assemblies of worshipers, to whom it was announced that "Christ has risen", even if we assume a real Jesus.

Take the Galatians for example. Paul was traveling in Galatia and apparently fell ill and was taken in by them. But they weren't worshipers of Jesus to begin with. Paul was taken in by some congregation of God-fearers, whom he told about Jesus. But that organization already existed. It may well have already had a hierarchy and even some communication channel with Jerusalem prior to ever seeing Paul or ever having heard about Jesus.

That congregation could have been attending synagogue and reading the Jewish scriptures and participating in festivals and donating the the temple for 100 years by the time Paul came along for all we know. But, when Paul came along he told them that the distinction between them and "official Jews" was no more, and they didn't need to get circumcised in order to be considered full heirs to the covenant of Abraham. And they didn't need to worry about following Jewish dietary laws, etc. anymore either. When Paul did that, other Jews in the region said, "WTF?! That guy's crazy. If you don't get circumcised then don't call yourself a Jew and no, you aren't a part of the covenant." So they said, sorry Paul, we're going on with circumcision and following the laws so we can be part of the Jewish community. To which Paul freaked out and wrote the letter to the Galatians, seeing that his efforts had been in vain.
You are correct and it could be as you say, however, I personally would like to see some actual original source material to back up what seems to me to be an assumed position. In my opinion there are far to many assumptions about the early Christian cults that lack source material. This is IMO one of them.
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Jax
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Re: Galatians 1:21-24 : churches of Judea

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:44 pm Part of that quote from Josephus is still relevant, since it is one of the literary passages proffered for the existence of Godfearers: πάντων τῶν κατὰ τὴν οἰκουμένην Ἰουδαίων καὶ σεβομένων τὸν θεὸν ἔτι δὲ καὶ τῶν ἀπὸ τῆς Ἀσίας καὶ τῆς Εὐρώπης εἰς αὐτὸ συμφερόντων ἐκ πολλῶν πάνυ χρόνων. The construction does make it look like "those who worship God" (σεβομένων τὸν θεόν) are "in addition" to (καί) "all the Jews of the habitable earth" (πάντων τῶν κατὰ τὴν οἰκουμένην Ἰουδαίων).
Still a bit vague though.
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Re: Galatians 1:21-24 : churches of Judea

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Josephus, The Wars Of The Jews, 6.5.4.
But now, what did the most [to] elevate them in undertaking this war, was an ambiguous oracle that was also found in their sacred writings, how," about that time, one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth." The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular, and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination. Now this oracle certainly denoted the government of Vespasian, who was appointed emperor in Judea. However, it is not possible for men to avoid fate, although they see it beforehand. But these men interpreted some of these signals according to their own pleasure, and some of them they utterly despised, until their madness was demonstrated, both by the taking of their city and their own destruction.
It's a well-known passage in Josephus that suggests that some were expecting the Messiah around that time. Even "many of the wise men" thought this. It's total speculation on my part, but if there were groups who had organised with that expectation, there might have been groups "in Christ" that were independent of any Jesus, possibly even preceding him. The connection between "an ambiguous oracle" and "wise men" with the infancy story is also interesting.
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Re: Galatians 1:21-24 : churches of Judea

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Jax wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:49 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:44 pm Part of that quote from Josephus is still relevant, since it is one of the literary passages proffered for the existence of Godfearers: πάντων τῶν κατὰ τὴν οἰκουμένην Ἰουδαίων καὶ σεβομένων τὸν θεὸν ἔτι δὲ καὶ τῶν ἀπὸ τῆς Ἀσίας καὶ τῆς Εὐρώπης εἰς αὐτὸ συμφερόντων ἐκ πολλῶν πάνυ χρόνων. The construction does make it look like "those who worship God" (σεβομένων τὸν θεόν) are "in addition" to (καί) "all the Jews of the habitable earth" (πάντων τῶν κατὰ τὴν οἰκουμένην Ἰουδαίων).
Still a bit vague though.
I agree with that. Are you looking specifically for Godfearers being organized in communities of some kind?
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