The start of the Jesus story

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
Peter Kirby
Site Admin
Posts: 8048
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:13 pm
Location: Santa Clara
Contact:

Re: The start of the Jesus story

Post by Peter Kirby »

hakeem wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:30 am The author of gMark used the story of John the Baptist in the 18th book of Antiquities of the Jews to help "historicise" the fiction character called Jesus of Nazareth.
You haven't shown this.
hakeem
Posts: 663
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:20 am

Re: The start of the Jesus story

Post by hakeem »

It is the NT itself that shows their main character Jesus is fictional.

Look at gMark 1.

Mark 1
9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.

10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him/b]:

11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.



Please, tell me when did the heavens open? When did the Spirit in the form of a dove descend upon the character called Jesus?

What voice came from heaven?

After the mention of John the Baptist the NT Gospel authors proceeded to unleash fiction after fiction.

Again, look at the very same chapter of gMark -- immediately after the fictional baptism event there is another fiction called the temptation.

Mark 1

12 And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness.

13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.



What devil? What angels?

There is a lot more fiction in the very first chapter of gMark.

Look at Mark 1.23-26, Mark 1.30-31, Mark 1 32-34 and Mark 1. 40-42.

Just in the first chapter of gMark alone there are at least six fictional accounts of Jesus.

It is evident that once the characters mentioned in the 18th book of Antiquities of the Jews were not inserted in gMark then the Jesus story would have had no historical value.
User avatar
Peter Kirby
Site Admin
Posts: 8048
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:13 pm
Location: Santa Clara
Contact:

Re: The start of the Jesus story

Post by Peter Kirby »

hakeem wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:11 pm It is the NT itself that shows their main character Jesus is fictional.
That is a better argument!
hakeem
Posts: 663
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:20 am

Re: The start of the Jesus story

Post by hakeem »

Peter Kirby wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:18 pm
hakeem wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:11 pm It is the NT itself that shows their main character Jesus is fictional.
That is a better argument!
The quality of my arguments is based on evidence not on opinion.
hakeem
Posts: 663
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:20 am

Re: The start of the Jesus story

Post by hakeem »

The evidence from the very NT shows that the so-called Pauline writings are very late--composed after Acts of the Apostles.

The following table shows excerpts from the Synoptics.

gMark 14 gMatthew 26 gLuke 22 1Corinthians 11
22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.
.
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. 19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

As shown earlier the so-called Pauline writers were alive after gLuke was written since their supposed revelation from the resurrected Jesus about the ritual of the Eucharist was really lifted from gLuke composed after at least c 94 CE.

There is other evidence in the NT itself that the so-called Paul was not a contemporary of Aretas but lived at some later time and was using Acts of the Apostles.

Acts of the Apostles 2 Corinthians
9. 24 But their laying await was known of Saul. And they watched the gates day and night to kill him.
25 Then the disciples took him by night, and let him down by the wall in a basket.
11. 32 In Damascus the governor under Aretas the king kept the city of the damascenes with a garrison, desirous to apprehend me:
33 And through a window in a basket was I let down by the wall, and escaped his hands.


The so-called Paul in the Corinthians letter implies he is Saul in Acts who escaped from Damascus in a basket down a wall.
But, the Pauline writer has fallen into a trap of his own making.
When did the character called Saul escape from Damascus in Acts of the Apostles?
It was during the time of Simon Magus.
When was Simon doing his magic tricks and was worshipped as a God?
In the time of Claudius Caesar c 41-53 CE.
Acts of the Apostles Justin’s First Apology
8.9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.
There was a Samaritan, Simon, a native of the village called Gitto, who in the reign of Claudius Caesar, and in your royal city of Rome, did mighty acts of magic, by virtue of the art of the devils operating in him. He was considered a god...

Since Simon Magus was in the time of Claudius and Saul’s escape from Damascus happened at around the time when Simon was already worshiped as a God then Aretas would have already been dead since c 40 CE in the time of Caius Caesar.

There would not have been a governor of Damascus under Aretas in the time of Claudius when Saul escaped Damascus in Acts and further there would not have been a governor of Damascus under Aretas in the time Tiberius.

In the writings of Josephus Vitellus was president of Syria in the time of Tiberius and Petronius was president in the time of Caius and Claudius.


Vitellius was president of Syria under Tiberius in Antiquities 18.4.1
….. the Samaritan senate sent an embassy to Vitellius, a man that had been consul, and who was now president of Syria..


Petronius was president of Syria under Caius-- Antiquities of the Jew 18.8.2
. Hereupon Caius, taking it very heinously that he should be thus despised by the Jews alone, sent Petronius to be president of Syria, and successor in the government to Vitellius ..

The so-called Paul used a fiction story of Saul in Acts ch 9 escaping Damascus and then introduced more fiction by claiming the event happened when there was a governor under Aretas.

There could not have been a governor of Damascus under Aretas during the reign of Tiberiius, Caius and Claudius

In addition Aretas was already dead before Saul's escape in Acts 9.


The so-called Paul was not a contemporary of Aretas but was a fraud who lived no earlier than after the writing of Acts of the Apostles.
Post Reply