Understanding Daniel 7?

[rgprice]

I'm trying to understand Daniel 7: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... rsion=NASB

“I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were serving Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court convened,
And the books were opened.
...
I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a son of man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 And to Him was given dominion,
Honor, and a kingdom,
So that all the peoples, nations, and populations of all languages
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

Then the interpretation:

15 “As for me, Daniel, my spirit was distressed within me, and the visions in my mind kept alarming me. 16 I approached one of those who were standing by and began requesting of him the exact meaning of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things: 17 ‘These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth. 18 But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and take possession of the kingdom forever, for all ages to come.’

19 “Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which devoured, crushed, and trampled down the remainder with its feet, 20 and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, and before which three of the horns fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts, and which was larger in appearance than its associates. 21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

23 “This is what he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth which will be different from all the other kingdoms, and will devour the whole earth and trample it down and crush it. 24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will humble three kings. 25 And he will speak against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be handed over to him for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the court will convene for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the empires will serve and obey Him.

There are clearly two figures here. Is there also a third? Is the "Most High" the same as the "Highest One"? Or is the Most High the Ancient of Days?

Is the "Highest One" the one who was "like a son of man"?

The use of the term "Highest One" is a little strange, as I would think that the Ancient of Days would be the Most High God.

Apparently some Rabbis interpret this as referring to two aspects of one God, while others see the one "like a son of man" as a David Messiah, not God or a god. Another interpretation is that this is dealing with two Gods equated perhaps to El Elyon and YHWH.

[Ben C. Smith]

I'm trying to understand Daniel 7: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... rsion=NASB

“I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were serving Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court convened,
And the books were opened.
...
I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a son of man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 And to Him was given dominion,
Honor, and a kingdom,
So that all the peoples, nations, and populations of all languages
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

Then the interpretation:

15 “As for me, Daniel, my spirit was distressed within me, and the visions in my mind kept alarming me. 16 I approached one of those who were standing by and began requesting of him the exact meaning of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things: 17 ‘These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth. 18 But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and take possession of the kingdom forever, for all ages to come.’

19 “Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which devoured, crushed, and trampled down the remainder with its feet, 20 and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, and before which three of the horns fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts, and which was larger in appearance than its associates. 21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

23 “This is what he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth which will be different from all the other kingdoms, and will devour the whole earth and trample it down and crush it. 24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will humble three kings. 25 And he will speak against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be handed over to him for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the court will convene for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the empires will serve and obey Him.

There are clearly two figures here. Is there also a third? Is the "Most High" the same as the "Highest One"? Or is the Most High the Ancient of Days?

Is the "Highest One" the one who was "like a son of man"?

The use of the term "Highest One" is a little strange, as I would think that the Ancient of Days would be the Most High God.

Apparently some Rabbis interpret this as referring to two aspects of one God, while others see the one "like a son of man" as a David Messiah, not God or a god. Another interpretation is that this is dealing with two Gods equated perhaps to El Elyon and YHWH.

I can see why this would be confusing, and I am hampered in this case by my lack of detailed knowledge of Aramaic, because Daniel 2.4-7.28, as you may know, is in Aramaic, not in Hebrew.

But here is what I think is happening in the translation. The word translated as Most High throughout this section of Daniel is עִלָּי (Illay), which is apparently the Aramaic equivalent to the Hebrew Elyon. I count ten instances of this word in the Aramaic section. However, there are four times in which עֶלְיוֹן (Elyon) is used instead in the plural, probably an Aramaic imitation of the effect that the Hebrew Elohim has, since Elohim is plural but typically treated grammatically as if it were singular. Elsewhere, in Hebrew, Elyon is in the singular when applied to God. The translators had a Gordian knot of sorts on their hands, and this is the way they chose to cut it: by using two different expressions which mean exactly the same thing in English (Highest and Most High are both perfectly acceptable versions of "high" to the superlative degree), similar to how Illay and Elyon are expressing the same thing in Aramaic and Hebrew, respectively. Pretty smooth solution to the problem, actually, but not without its confusions if you are trying to nail the original language perfectly.

(Anyone with more knowledge of Aramaic than I is absolutely welcome to give me a better explanation of what is happening in this passage.)

[gryan]

This usage of "the son of man" in Daniel is an important part of Bart Ehrman's reconstruction of the apocalyptic vision of historical Jesus. In his reconstruction (as I understand it from a live lecture delivered by Ehrman this past Sunday on Zoom), historical Jesus spoke of "the son of man" as other. After the death and resurrection of Jesus, believers began to see Jesus as "the son of man." Since historical John the Baptist had an apocalyptic vision, and since the historical followers of Jesus after his death had an apocalyptic vision, then historical Jesus probably also had an apocalyptic vision of his own life and work. Ehrman cites Albert Schweitzer as a pioneer in this kind of "Quest for historical Jesus."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Quest ... ical_Jesus

I myself have not done such a detailed study of "the son of Man" in Daniel as is being done on this topic by Price and Smith. And so I am following the topic with interest.

[rgprice]

Daniel doesn't say "the son of man", it says "one like a son of man", which was a fairly common expression meaning a heavenly figure who took the form of a man. And the idea that "the real Jesus" said anything about "the son of man" is preposterous. Ehrman is frustratingly clueless sometimes, because he does put out some decent scholarship, but its often entirely marred due he blinders he's always wearing.

[rgprice]

Barker argues that the Ancient of Days here represents Elyon, the Highest God, and that the one like a son of man is Yahweh.

I'm still at a bit of a loss on understanding this.

Based on what Ben said, "Most High" and "Highest One" are synonymous.

Does this make sense if we assume the Most High = Highest One?

"25 And he will speak against the Most High [Elyon] and wear down the saints of the Highest One [Elyon], and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be handed over to him for a time, times, and half a time."

I suppose it does. Moving on:

"26 But the court will convene for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever."

So the one having his dominion taken away is the one who was speaking against the Highest One. Then the kingdom is given over to the saints of the Highest One.

I'm still confused by the term "Highest One", be is Elyon or Illay or Elohim or whatever.

It seems that the Ancient of Days is "higher" than the "Highest One". The Highest One seems to be a king who is presented before God. This would make the Ancient of Days the "Highest One". The Ancient of Days is also a judge.

Still confusing...