The peculiar case of the two masters

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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mlinssen
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The peculiar case of the two masters

Post by mlinssen »

Thomas logion 47. Greek loanwords are capitalised (and the translation can be found at the usual place, https://www.academia.edu/42110001)

47 said IS : there-is-not strength of a human set-on to horse two or/and he stretch the(PL) bow two
and there-is-not strength of a slave serve slaveowner two Or he will make-be Honor the one and the other one he will make-be "Hubrize" him
not-usually human drink wine old and within the(F) hour he Desire drink wine the young
and not-usually they cast wine the young as-regards Wine-skin of old in-order-that Shan't! they split
and not-usually they cast wine of old to Wine-skin the young So-that : Shan't! he destroy him
not-usually they cut rag of old to garment of new Since there-be a split will come-to-be

All these are in the NT - but not as whole. The question is: how on earth did Thomas manage to scrape these pieces together into this beautifully coherent logion? And add the bold part from nowhere, just because it fits so perfectly well?
What a master...

WEB, unfortunately

Mark 2:21 No one sews a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, or else the patch shrinks and the new tears away from the old, and a worse hole is made. 22 No one puts new wine into old wineskins; or else the new wine will burst the skins, and the wine pours out, and the skins will be destroyed; but they put new wine into fresh wineskins."

Luke 5:36 He also told a parable to them. "No one puts a piece from a new garment on an old garment, or else he will tear the new, and also the piece from the new will not match the old. 37 No one puts new wine into old wine skins, or else the new wine will burst the skins, and it will be spilled, and the skins will be destroyed. 38 But new wine must be put into fresh wine skins, and both are preserved. 39 No man having drunk old wine immediately desires new, for he says, 'The old is better.'"

Matthew 9:16 No one puts a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; for the patch would tear away from the garment, and a worse hole is made. 17 Neither do people put new wine into old wine skins, or else the skins would burst, and the wine be spilled, and the skins ruined.
No, they put new wine into fresh wine skins, and both are preserved."

Luke adds a piece of Thomas that the others don't have, as far as we know it is not attested in Marcion - that on a side note. The order of clothing is reversed, and none of the balanced Thomas is present in the canonicals. His "rag of old" is the very essence of the logion, and pertains to the mental models we inherit from our parents - with separation as a result.
Anyway. What do we find in an entirely different place?

Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to one, and despise the other. You aren't able to serve God and Mammon."

Matthew 6:24 "No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You can't serve both God and Mammon.

So Luke 16 has the beginning of logion 47, and Luke 5 the remainder.
And Matthew 6 has the beginning and Matthew 9 the remainder

Marcion has it as well:

13 No one servant can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to one, and despise the other. You aren’t able to serve God and Mammon.

What's happening here?
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Re: The peculiar case of the two masters

Post by mlinssen »

Perhaps I've been too subtle. Then again I have very little practice in that area

This is the first of currently three 'peculiar' cases, and there's nothing peculiar about them when you hold that Thomas got copied by the canonicals, and that the direction of dependence never was reverse

If you don't ... Well then I'm all ears!
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Re: The peculiar case of the two masters

Post by hakeem »

mlinssen wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:11 am Perhaps I've been too subtle. Then again I have very little practice in that area

This is the first of currently three 'peculiar' cases, and there's nothing peculiar about them when you hold that Thomas got copied by the canonicals, and that the direction of dependence never was reverse

If you don't ... Well then I'm all ears!

The Gospel of Thomas is a very late writing. The sayings of Jesus in gThomas are embellishments of earlier sources or fabrications by the unknown author.

Look at Gospel of Thomas 100--
He said to them, "Give the emperor what belongs to the emperor, give God what belongs to God, and give me what is mine.

Now, Look Mark 12, Mattew 21 and Luke 20

Mark 12.17 And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's

Matthew 22:21.......Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Luke 20:25
And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's.

None of the Gospels claimed Jesus said "and give me what is mine".

This is evidence that gThomas was later than the Gospels.

Another example is gThomas 107.

Gospel of Thomas
107 Jesus said, The kingdom is like a shepherd who had a hundred sheep. One of them, the largest, went astray. He left the ninety- nine and looked for the one until he found it. After he had toiled, he said to the sheep, 'I love you more than the ninety- nine.'

Again, we have gThomas with part of a saying of Jesus which is not found in the Gospels.

The NT Gospels do not contain the saying where Jesus said to the sheep 'I love you more than the ninety- nine.'[/u]


Matthew 18:12
How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray

The pattern is clear the supposed sayings of Jesus in gThomas are later than the Gospel and are unknown by early Christian writings.
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Re: The peculiar case of the two masters

Post by mlinssen »

hakeem wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:30 pm The Gospel of Thomas is a very late writing. The sayings of Jesus in gThomas are embellishments of earlier sources or fabrications by the unknown author.

Look at Gospel of Thomas 100--
He said to them, "Give the emperor what belongs to the emperor, give God what belongs to God, and give me what is mine.

Now, Look Mark 12, Mattew 21 and Luke 20

Mark 12.17 And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's

Matthew 22:21.......Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Luke 20:25
And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's.

None of the Gospels claimed Jesus said "and give me what is mine".

This is evidence that gThomas was later than the Gospels.

Another example is gThomas 107.

Gospel of Thomas
107 Jesus said, The kingdom is like a shepherd who had a hundred sheep. One of them, the largest, went astray. He left the ninety- nine and looked for the one until he found it. After he had toiled, he said to the sheep, 'I love you more than the ninety- nine.'

Again, we have gThomas with part of a saying of Jesus which is not found in the Gospels.

The NT Gospels do not contain the saying where Jesus said to the sheep 'I love you more than the ninety- nine.'[/u]


Matthew 18:12
How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray

The pattern is clear the supposed sayings of Jesus in gThomas are later than the Gospel and are unknown by early Christian writings.
The sayings of Jesus in gThomas are embellishments of earlier sources or fabrications by the unknown author.

So, what you are claiming is that Thomas has parts in his text that the canonicals don't have - and hence he is later?

What I assume you are referring to is the well-known adagium of "(not) more simple version", i.e. a more basic version, be that in quantity or quality, its likely to be more original.
That is a very reasonable argument really, and one of the more straightforward ones when it comes to textual criticism

But then a great part of the NT is later than Thomas as he doesn't explain any parable, he just has them and that's it, whereas the canonicals go to great length at not only adding to them, but also explaining them - even justifying them by pointing to the Tanakh, regardless of whether some of those pointers are valid or not, or fabricated

I'll just give one example in order to prevent citing a hundred pages or so:

Matthew 5:3 And He spoke to them many things in parables, saying, “Behold, the one sowing went out to sow.
4 And in his sowing, indeed some fell along the road, and the birds having come, devoured them.
5 And other fell upon the rocky places where it did not have much soil. And it sprang up immediately, through having no depth of soil.
6 And the sun having risen, they were scorched, and through not having root, were dried up.
7 And other fell upon the thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them.
8 And other fell upon the good soil and were yielding fruit—indeed some a hundredfold, and some sixty, and some thirty.

9 The one having ears, let him hear!”
10 And the disciples having approached, said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?
11 And answering He said to them, “Because it has been granted to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of the heavens, but to them it has not been granted.
12 For whoever has, to him will be given, and he will be in abundance. And whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.
13 Because of this I speak to them in parables: ‘Because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.’
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, saying: ‘In hearing you will hear and never understand; and in seeing you will see and never perceive.
15 For the heart of this people has grown dull, and they barely hear with the ears, and they have closed their eyes, lest ever they should see with the eyes, and they should hear with the ears, and they should understand with the heart, and should turn, and I will heal them.’
16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.
17 For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see, and did not see; and to hear what you hear, and did not hear.
18 You, therefore, hear the parable of the one having sown: 19 Everyone hearing the word of the kingdom and not understanding, the evil one comes and snatches away that having been sown in his heart. This is the one having been sown on the path.
20 And the one having been sown upon the rocky places, this is the one hearing the word and immediately receiving it with joy.
21 And he has in himself no root, but is temporary. And having come tribulation or persecution on account of the word, immediately he falls away.
22 And the one having been sown among the thorns, this is the one hearing the word, but the care of this present age and the deceit of riches choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
23 But the one having been sown on the good soil, this is the one hearing the word and understanding, who indeed brings forth fruit and produces—indeed, some a hundredfold, and some sixty, and some thirty.”

Thomas logion 9

9 said IS : lo-behold did he go-forth viz. he-who throw-sows
did he fill-hands his did he cast
did some(PL) Whilst fall upon the(F) path did they come viz. the(PL) bird did they gather them
some(PL) another did they fall upon the(F) Rock and not they take root downward to the earth and not they put-forth heads-of-grain upward to the(F) heaven
and some(PL) another did they fall upon the(PL) acacia-nilotica did they choke the seed and did the worm eat them
and did some(PL) another fall upon the earth good and did he give Fruit upward to the(F) heaven good
did he come of sixty to arrow and hundred twenty to arrow

I've emphasised the part of Matthew that is the parable itself. And I have highlighted the part that they added here...

and are unknown by early Christian writings.

Those are unknown to Thomas and early gnostic writings. In fact, where Thomas frequently cites from the Tanakh, he doesn't cite anything from the NT.
And while he clearly rejects fasting, praying, giving alms, he doesn't say a single word about the death of Jesus or any claims that the protagonist of the NT makes

Both your arguments are very valid ones, hakeem, but the first one works against you rather than for you, as almost every copy of Thomas in the NT is an embellishment of his. For the second one to be accepted in full, one would have to assume that the Church Fathers were objective historians who dedicated themselves to accurately describing every text that appeared.
Next to that, they never mention the gospel of Thomas by name at all, not even in the 3rd, 4th, 5th century or whatnot. They never mention it at all
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Re: The peculiar case of the two masters

Post by andrewcriddle »

mlinssen wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:13 pm ..............................

and are unknown by early Christian writings.

Those are unknown to Thomas and early gnostic writings. In fact, where Thomas frequently cites from the Tanakh, he doesn't cite anything from the NT.
And while he clearly rejects fasting, praying, giving alms, he doesn't say a single word about the death of Jesus or any claims that the protagonist of the NT makes

Both your arguments are very valid ones, hakeem, but the first one works against you rather than for you, as almost every copy of Thomas in the NT is an embellishment of his. For the second one to be accepted in full, one would have to assume that the Church Fathers were objective historians who dedicated themselves to accurately describing every text that appeared.
Next to that, they never mention the gospel of Thomas by name at all, not even in the 3rd, 4th, 5th century or whatnot. They never mention it at all
Hippolytus in Aainst all Heresies seems to mention Thomas
And concerning this (nature) they hand down an explicit passage, occurring in the Gospel inscribed according to Thomas, expressing themselves thus: He who seeks me, will find me in children from seven years old; for there concealed, I shall in the fourteenth age be made manifest. This, however, is not (the teaching) of Christ, but of Hippocrates, who uses these words: A child of seven years is half of a father. And so it is that these (heretics), placing the originative nature of the universe in causative seed, (and) having ascertained the (aphorism) of Hippocrates, that a child of seven years old is half of a father, say that in fourteen years, according to Thomas, he is manifested.
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Re: The peculiar case of the two masters

Post by Ben C. Smith »

andrewcriddle wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:34 amHippolytus in Aainst all Heresies seems to mention Thomas
And concerning this (nature) they hand down an explicit passage, occurring in the Gospel inscribed according to Thomas, expressing themselves thus: He who seeks me, will find me in children from seven years old; for there concealed, I shall in the fourteenth age be made manifest. This, however, is not (the teaching) of Christ, but of Hippocrates, who uses these words: A child of seven years is half of a father. And so it is that these (heretics), placing the originative nature of the universe in causative seed, (and) having ascertained the (aphorism) of Hippocrates, that a child of seven years old is half of a father, say that in fourteen years, according to Thomas, he is manifested.
Origen mentions the gospel of Thomas by name in the prologue to his Homilies on Luke, writing, "I know a certain Gospel which is called according to Thomas, and one according to Matthias, and many others." Cyril writes in Catecheses 4.36, "The Manichaeans even wrote a Gospel of Thomas, which has been anointed by the sweetness of its evangelical title and corrupts the souls of the simpler folk." And of course Eusebius lists the Gospel of Thomas among the rejected books in History of the Church 3.25.6-7.
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Re: The peculiar case of the two masters

Post by mlinssen »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:41 am
andrewcriddle wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:34 amHippolytus in Aainst all Heresies seems to mention Thomas
And concerning this (nature) they hand down an explicit passage, occurring in the Gospel inscribed according to Thomas, expressing themselves thus: He who seeks me, will find me in children from seven years old; for there concealed, I shall in the fourteenth age be made manifest. This, however, is not (the teaching) of Christ, but of Hippocrates, who uses these words: A child of seven years is half of a father. And so it is that these (heretics), placing the originative nature of the universe in causative seed, (and) having ascertained the (aphorism) of Hippocrates, that a child of seven years old is half of a father, say that in fourteen years, according to Thomas, he is manifested.
Origen mentions the gospel of Thomas by name in the prologue to his Homilies on Luke, writing, "I know a certain Gospel which is called according to Thomas, and one according to Matthias, and many others." Cyril writes in Catecheses 4.36, "The Manichaeans even wrote a Gospel of Thomas, which has been anointed by the sweetness of its evangelical title and corrupts the souls of the simpler folk." And of course Eusebius lists the Gospel of Thomas among the rejected books in History of the Church 3.25.6-7.
Indeed. I can only conclude that there was quite some confusion about its name, and the contents quoted are sometimes attributed to gospel of the Hebrews and other vague ones

Funny thing about this particular logion is that it got mistranslated. It doesn't make sense in the usual translations (Lambdin)

(4) Jesus said, "The man old in days will not hesitate to ask a small child seven days old about the place of life, and he will live. For many who are first will become last, and they will become one and the same."

How will that happen, and who will live? The translation is of no use this way

4 said IS he will delay not viz. the human old-person in his(PL) day to make-cease a(n) little child young he in seven day because-of the Place of the life and he will live : there-be many first will make-be last and they come-to-be one alone

To make cease growing any further - that will make the child live. And there's no delaying that of course. And it is done because-of the Place of the life - it all comes together this way
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Re: The peculiar case of the two masters

Post by Ben C. Smith »

mlinssen wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:33 amIndeed. I can only conclude that there was quite some confusion about its name, and the contents quoted are sometimes attributed to gospel of the Hebrews and other vague ones
The contents of the Gospel of the Hebrews and the Gospel of Thomas probably overlapped, just like the contents of all the other gospels do.
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Re: The peculiar case of the two masters

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Here are the parallels:

Clement of Alexandria, Miscellanies 2.9.45.4-5: 4 But the beginning of this is to marvel at matters, as Plato says in the Theaetetus (= 155d, τὸ θαυμάζειν, οὐ γὰρ ἄλλη ἀρχὴ φιλοσοφίας ἢ αὕτη) and Matthias in the Traditions, exhorting, “Marvel at things present,” placing this down as the first step of the knowledge of the beyond. 5 Which also is written in the gospel according to the Hebrews, “He who has marveled shall reign, and he who has reigned shall rest.” / 4 Ταύτης δὲ ἀρχὴ τὸ θαυμάσαι τὰ πράγματα, ὡς Πλάτων ἐν Θεαιτήτῳ λέγει καὶ Ματθίας ἐν ταῖς Παραδόσεσι παραινῶν, «Θαύμασον τὰ παρόντα,» βαθμὸν τοῦτον πρῶτον τῆς ἐπέκεινα γνώσεως ὑποτιθέμενος, 5 ᾗ κἀν τῷ καθ´ Ἑβραίους εὐαγγελίῳ, «Ὁ θαυμάσας βασιλεύσει,» γέγραπται, «καὶ ὁ βασιλεύσας ἀναπαήσεται.»

Clement of Alexandria, Miscellanies 5.14.96.3: 3 For those things can be the same as these, “The one seeking shall not cease until he should find, and having sought he shall marvel, and having marveled he shall reign, and having reigned he shall rest.” / 3 Ἴσον γὰρ τούτοις ἐκεῖνα δύναται, «Οὐ παύσεται ὁ ζητῶν ἕως ἂν εὕρῃ, εὑρὼν δὲ θαμβηθήσεται, θαμβηθεὶς δὲ βασιλεύσει, βασιλεύσας δὲ ἐπαναπαήσεται.»

Eusebius, History of the Church 2.13.6-7: 6 We have understood that Simon was the author of all heresy, from whose time down to the present those who have followed his heresy have feigned the sober philosophy of the Christians, which is celebrated among all on account of its purity of life. But they nevertheless have embraced again the superstitions of idols, which they seemed to have renounced; and they fall down before pictures and images of Simon himself and of the abovementioned Helena who was with him; and they venture to worship them with incense and sacrifices and libations. 7 But those matters which they keep more secret than these, in regard to which they say that one upon first hearing them would be astonished, and, to use one of the written phrases in vogue among them, would be confounded, are in truth full of amazing things, and of madness and folly, being of such a sort that it is impossible not only to commit them to writing, but also for modest men even to utter them with the lips on account of their excessive baseness and lewdness. / 6 Πάσης μὲν οὖν ἀρχηγὸν αἱρέσεως πρῶτον γενέσθαι τὸν Σίμωνα παρειλήφαμεν, ἐξ οὗ καὶ εἰς δεῦρο οἱ τὴν κατ´ αὐτὸν μετιόντες αἵρεσιν τὴν σώφρονα καὶ διὰ καθαρότητα βίου παρὰ τοῖς πᾶσιν βεβοημένην Χριστιανῶν φιλοσοφίαν ὑποκρινόμενοι, ἧς μὲν ἔδοξαν ἀπαλλάττεσθαι περὶ τὰ εἴδωλα δεισιδαιμονίας οὐδὲν ἧττον αὖθις ἐπιλαμβάνονται, καταπίπτοντες ἐπὶ γραφὰς καὶ εἰκόνας αὐτοῦ τε τοῦ Σίμωνος καὶ τῆς σὺν αὐτῷ δηλωθείσης Ἑλένης θυμιάμασίν τε καὶ θυσίαις καὶ σπονδαῖς τούτους θρῃσκεύειν ἐγχειροῦντες, 7 τὰ δὲ τούτων αὐτοῖς ἀπορρητότερα, ὧν φασι τὸν πρῶτον ἐπακούσαντα ἐκπλαγήσεσθαι καὶ κατά τι παρ´ αὐτοῖς λόγιον ἔγγραφον θαμβωθήσεσθαι, θάμβους ὡς ἀληθῶς καὶ φρενῶν ἐκστάσεως καὶ μανίας ἔμπλεα τυγχάνει, τοιαῦτα ὄντα, ὡς μὴ μόνον μὴ δυνατὰ εἶναι παραδοθῆναι γραφῇ, ἀλλ´ οὐδὲ χείλεσιν αὐτὸ μόνον δι´ ὑπερβολὴν αἰσχρουργίας τε καὶ ἀρρητοποιίας ἀνδράσι σώφροσι λαληθῆναι.

Gospel of Thomas 2.1-2: 1 [Je(su)s says,] “Let the one who se[eks] not cease [to seek until he should] find, 2 and whenever he [should] find 3 [he shall marvel, and] having marveled 4 he shall reign, 5 an[d having reigned] he shall [rest.”] / 2 [Λέγει Ἰη(σοῦ)ς,] «Μὴ παυσάσθω ὁ ζη[τῶν τοῦ ζητεῖν ἕως ἂν] εὕρῃ, καὶ ὅταν εὕρ[ῃ θαμβηθήσεται, καὶ θαμ]βηθεὶς βασιλεύση, κα[ὶ βασιλεύσας ἐπαναπα]ήσεται.

Acts of Thomas 136 apud Maximilian Bonnet, Acta Apostolorum Apocrypha, volume 2, lines 21-29: 21-29 And the apostle said, “The treasury of the holy king is open, and those who worthily take part of the treasures deposited there rest, and by resting they reign. But first, no unclean and bad man comes to him. For he knows our hearts and the depths of our thoughts, and none can be hidden from him. You, too, if you truly believe in him, shall be deemed worthy of his mysteries, and he will make you great and rich and an heir of his kingdom.” / 21-29 Καὶ ὁ ἀπόστολος εἶπεν, «Τὸ ταμιεῖον τοῦ ἁγίου βασιλέως ἀναπέπταται, καὶ οἱ ἀξίως μεταλαμβάνοντες τῶν ἐκεῖ ἀγαθῶν ἀναπαύονται καὶ ἀναπαυόμενοι βασιλεύουσιν. πρότερον δὲ οὐδεὶς αὐτῷ πρόσεισιν ἀκάθαρτος ὢν καὶ φαῦλος· οἶδεν γὰρ αὐτὸς τὰ ἐγκάρδια ἡμῶν καὶ τὰ τῆς ἐνθυμήσεως βάθη· καὶ οὐκ ἔστιν τινὰ λαθεῖν αὐτόν. καὶ σὺ τοίνυν, εἰ ἀληθῶς πιστεύεις εἰς αὐτόν, ἀξιωθήσῃ τῶν αὐτοῦ μυστηρίων· καὶ αὐτός σε μεγαλυνεῖ καὶ πλουτιεῖ καὶ κληρονόμον τῆς αὐτοῦ βασιλείας ποιήσει.»

1 Corinthians 4.6-13: 6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos on your account, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other. 7 For who considers you as superior? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it? 8 You are already filled, you have already become rich, you have reigned without us; and indeed, I wish that you had reigned so that we also might reign with you! 9 For I think, God has exhibited us, the apostles, last of all as men condemned to death, because we have become a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to mankind. 10 We are fools on account of Christ, but you are prudent in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are distinguished, but we are without honor! 11 Up to this present hour we are both hungry and thirsty, and are poorly clothed and roughly treated and homeless; 12 and we labor, working with our own hands; when we are verbally abused, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it; 13 when we are slandered, we reply as friends; we have become as the scum of the world, the dregs of all things, even until now. / 6 Ταῦτα δέ, ἀδελφοί, μετεσχημάτισα εἰς ἐμαυτὸν καὶ Ἀπολλῶν δι´ ὑμᾶς, ἵνα ἐν ἡμῖν μάθητε τὸ μὴ ὑπὲρ ἃ γέγραπται, ἵνα μὴ εἷς ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἑνὸς φυσιοῦσθε κατὰ τοῦ ἑτέρου. 7 τίς γάρ σε διακρίνει; τί δὲ ἔχεις ὃ οὐκ ἔλαβες; εἰ δὲ καὶ ἔλαβες, τί καυχᾶσαι ὡς μὴ λαβών; 8 ἤδη κεκορεσμένοι ἐστέ, ἤδη ἐπλουτήσατε, χωρὶς ἡμῶν ἐβασιλεύσατε· καὶ ὄφελόν γε ἐβασιλεύσατε, ἵνα καὶ ἡμεῖς ὑμῖν συμβασιλεύσωμεν. 9 δοκῶ γάρ, ὁ θεὸς ἡμᾶς τοὺς ἀποστόλους ἐσχάτους ἀπέδειξεν ὡς ἐπιθανατίους, ὅτι θέατρον ἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καὶ ἀγγέλοις καὶ ἀνθρώποις. 10 ἡμεῖς μωροὶ διὰ Χριστόν, ὑμεῖς δὲ φρόνιμοι ἐν Χριστῷ· ἡμεῖς ἀσθενεῖς, ὑμεῖς δὲ ἰσχυροί· ὑμεῖς ἔνδοξοι, ἡμεῖς δὲ ἄτιμοι. 11 ἄχρι τῆς ἄρτι ὥρας καὶ πεινῶμεν καὶ διψῶμεν καὶ γυμνιτεύομεν καὶ κολαφιζόμεθα καὶ ἀστατοῦμεν 12 καὶ κοπιῶμεν ἐργαζόμενοι ταῖς ἰδίαις χερσίν· λοιδορούμενοι εὐλογοῦμεν, διωκόμενοι ἀνεχόμεθα, 13 δυσφημούμενοι παρακαλοῦμεν· ὡς περικαθάρματα τοῦ κόσμου ἐγενήθημεν, πάντων περίψημα ἕως ἄρτι.

That saying kind of got around in one way or another.
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mlinssen
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Re: The peculiar case of the two masters

Post by mlinssen »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:47 am Here are the parallels:

Clement of Alexandria, Miscellanies 2.9.45.4-5: 4 But the beginning of this is to marvel at matters, as Plato says in the Theaetetus (= 155d, τὸ θαυμάζειν, οὐ γὰρ ἄλλη ἀρχὴ φιλοσοφίας ἢ αὕτη) and Matthias in the Traditions, exhorting, “Marvel at things present,” placing this down as the first step of the knowledge of the beyond. 5 Which also is written in the gospel according to the Hebrews, “He who has marveled shall reign, and he who has reigned shall rest.” / 4 Ταύτης δὲ ἀρχὴ τὸ θαυμάσαι τὰ πράγματα, ὡς Πλάτων ἐν Θεαιτήτῳ λέγει καὶ Ματθίας ἐν ταῖς Παραδόσεσι παραινῶν, «Θαύμασον τὰ παρόντα,» βαθμὸν τοῦτον πρῶτον τῆς ἐπέκεινα γνώσεως ὑποτιθέμενος, 5 ᾗ κἀν τῷ καθ´ Ἑβραίους εὐαγγελίῳ, «Ὁ θαυμάσας βασιλεύσει,» γέγραπται, «καὶ ὁ βασιλεύσας ἀναπαήσεται.»

Clement of Alexandria, Miscellanies 5.14.96.3: 3 For those things can be the same as these, “The one seeking shall not cease until he should find, and having sought he shall marvel, and having marveled he shall reign, and having reigned he shall rest.” / 3 Ἴσον γὰρ τούτοις ἐκεῖνα δύναται, «Οὐ παύσεται ὁ ζητῶν ἕως ἂν εὕρῃ, εὑρὼν δὲ θαμβηθήσεται, θαμβηθεὶς δὲ βασιλεύσει, βασιλεύσας δὲ ἐπαναπαήσεται.»

Eusebius, History of the Church 2.13.6-7: 6 We have understood that Simon was the author of all heresy, from whose time down to the present those who have followed his heresy have feigned the sober philosophy of the Christians, which is celebrated among all on account of its purity of life. But they nevertheless have embraced again the superstitions of idols, which they seemed to have renounced; and they fall down before pictures and images of Simon himself and of the abovementioned Helena who was with him; and they venture to worship them with incense and sacrifices and libations. 7 But those matters which they keep more secret than these, in regard to which they say that one upon first hearing them would be astonished, and, to use one of the written phrases in vogue among them, would be confounded, are in truth full of amazing things, and of madness and folly, being of such a sort that it is impossible not only to commit them to writing, but also for modest men even to utter them with the lips on account of their excessive baseness and lewdness. / 6 Πάσης μὲν οὖν ἀρχηγὸν αἱρέσεως πρῶτον γενέσθαι τὸν Σίμωνα παρειλήφαμεν, ἐξ οὗ καὶ εἰς δεῦρο οἱ τὴν κατ´ αὐτὸν μετιόντες αἵρεσιν τὴν σώφρονα καὶ διὰ καθαρότητα βίου παρὰ τοῖς πᾶσιν βεβοημένην Χριστιανῶν φιλοσοφίαν ὑποκρινόμενοι, ἧς μὲν ἔδοξαν ἀπαλλάττεσθαι περὶ τὰ εἴδωλα δεισιδαιμονίας οὐδὲν ἧττον αὖθις ἐπιλαμβάνονται, καταπίπτοντες ἐπὶ γραφὰς καὶ εἰκόνας αὐτοῦ τε τοῦ Σίμωνος καὶ τῆς σὺν αὐτῷ δηλωθείσης Ἑλένης θυμιάμασίν τε καὶ θυσίαις καὶ σπονδαῖς τούτους θρῃσκεύειν ἐγχειροῦντες, 7 τὰ δὲ τούτων αὐτοῖς ἀπορρητότερα, ὧν φασι τὸν πρῶτον ἐπακούσαντα ἐκπλαγήσεσθαι καὶ κατά τι παρ´ αὐτοῖς λόγιον ἔγγραφον θαμβωθήσεσθαι, θάμβους ὡς ἀληθῶς καὶ φρενῶν ἐκστάσεως καὶ μανίας ἔμπλεα τυγχάνει, τοιαῦτα ὄντα, ὡς μὴ μόνον μὴ δυνατὰ εἶναι παραδοθῆναι γραφῇ, ἀλλ´ οὐδὲ χείλεσιν αὐτὸ μόνον δι´ ὑπερβολὴν αἰσχρουργίας τε καὶ ἀρρητοποιίας ἀνδράσι σώφροσι λαληθῆναι.

Gospel of Thomas 2.1-2: 1 [Je(su)s says,] “Let the one who se[eks] not cease [to seek until he should] find, 2 and whenever he [should] find 3 [he shall marvel, and] having marveled 4 he shall reign, 5 an[d having reigned] he shall [rest.”] / 2 [Λέγει Ἰη(σοῦ)ς,] «Μὴ παυσάσθω ὁ ζη[τῶν τοῦ ζητεῖν ἕως ἂν] εὕρῃ, καὶ ὅταν εὕρ[ῃ θαμβηθήσεται, καὶ θαμ]βηθεὶς βασιλεύση, κα[ὶ βασιλεύσας ἐπαναπα]ήσεται.

Acts of Thomas 136 apud Maximilian Bonnet, Acta Apostolorum Apocrypha, volume 2, lines 21-29: 21-29 And the apostle said, “The treasury of the holy king is open, and those who worthily take part of the treasures deposited there rest, and by resting they reign. But first, no unclean and bad man comes to him. For he knows our hearts and the depths of our thoughts, and none can be hidden from him. You, too, if you truly believe in him, shall be deemed worthy of his mysteries, and he will make you great and rich and an heir of his kingdom.” / 21-29 Καὶ ὁ ἀπόστολος εἶπεν, «Τὸ ταμιεῖον τοῦ ἁγίου βασιλέως ἀναπέπταται, καὶ οἱ ἀξίως μεταλαμβάνοντες τῶν ἐκεῖ ἀγαθῶν ἀναπαύονται καὶ ἀναπαυόμενοι βασιλεύουσιν. πρότερον δὲ οὐδεὶς αὐτῷ πρόσεισιν ἀκάθαρτος ὢν καὶ φαῦλος· οἶδεν γὰρ αὐτὸς τὰ ἐγκάρδια ἡμῶν καὶ τὰ τῆς ἐνθυμήσεως βάθη· καὶ οὐκ ἔστιν τινὰ λαθεῖν αὐτόν. καὶ σὺ τοίνυν, εἰ ἀληθῶς πιστεύεις εἰς αὐτόν, ἀξιωθήσῃ τῶν αὐτοῦ μυστηρίων· καὶ αὐτός σε μεγαλυνεῖ καὶ πλουτιεῖ καὶ κληρονόμον τῆς αὐτοῦ βασιλείας ποιήσει.»

1 Corinthians 4.6-13: 6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos on your account, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other. 7 For who considers you as superior? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it? 8 You are already filled, you have already become rich, you have reigned without us; and indeed, I wish that you had reigned so that we also might reign with you! 9 For I think, God has exhibited us, the apostles, last of all as men condemned to death, because we have become a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to mankind. 10 We are fools on account of Christ, but you are prudent in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are distinguished, but we are without honor! 11 Up to this present hour we are both hungry and thirsty, and are poorly clothed and roughly treated and homeless; 12 and we labor, working with our own hands; when we are verbally abused, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it; 13 when we are slandered, we reply as friends; we have become as the scum of the world, the dregs of all things, even until now. / 6 Ταῦτα δέ, ἀδελφοί, μετεσχημάτισα εἰς ἐμαυτὸν καὶ Ἀπολλῶν δι´ ὑμᾶς, ἵνα ἐν ἡμῖν μάθητε τὸ μὴ ὑπὲρ ἃ γέγραπται, ἵνα μὴ εἷς ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἑνὸς φυσιοῦσθε κατὰ τοῦ ἑτέρου. 7 τίς γάρ σε διακρίνει; τί δὲ ἔχεις ὃ οὐκ ἔλαβες; εἰ δὲ καὶ ἔλαβες, τί καυχᾶσαι ὡς μὴ λαβών; 8 ἤδη κεκορεσμένοι ἐστέ, ἤδη ἐπλουτήσατε, χωρὶς ἡμῶν ἐβασιλεύσατε· καὶ ὄφελόν γε ἐβασιλεύσατε, ἵνα καὶ ἡμεῖς ὑμῖν συμβασιλεύσωμεν. 9 δοκῶ γάρ, ὁ θεὸς ἡμᾶς τοὺς ἀποστόλους ἐσχάτους ἀπέδειξεν ὡς ἐπιθανατίους, ὅτι θέατρον ἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καὶ ἀγγέλοις καὶ ἀνθρώποις. 10 ἡμεῖς μωροὶ διὰ Χριστόν, ὑμεῖς δὲ φρόνιμοι ἐν Χριστῷ· ἡμεῖς ἀσθενεῖς, ὑμεῖς δὲ ἰσχυροί· ὑμεῖς ἔνδοξοι, ἡμεῖς δὲ ἄτιμοι. 11 ἄχρι τῆς ἄρτι ὥρας καὶ πεινῶμεν καὶ διψῶμεν καὶ γυμνιτεύομεν καὶ κολαφιζόμεθα καὶ ἀστατοῦμεν 12 καὶ κοπιῶμεν ἐργαζόμενοι ταῖς ἰδίαις χερσίν· λοιδορούμενοι εὐλογοῦμεν, διωκόμενοι ἀνεχόμεθα, 13 δυσφημούμενοι παρακαλοῦμεν· ὡς περικαθάρματα τοῦ κόσμου ἐγενήθημεν, πάντων περίψημα ἕως ἄρτι.

That saying kind of got around in one way or another.
I'm of the opinion that they're all quoting from the Greek version of Thomas, which has the extra part at the end that the Coptic doesn't have: "and having reigned he shall rest"
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