How on earth could Josephus write "called Christ"?
1. Our name Jesus was invented by Justin Martyr (150-165), to be found in his writings. Before there was another name. Any Jesus called Christ comes therefore from after 170. And it is a Christian interpolation.
2. Since Christ is meaning messiah, they say, Josephus could not write this, because there had been no messiah in Judea until then. Just one expected in the war, who did not show up.
3. Where is the story about this messiah in his first book about the years 0 to 70?
4. Josephus would never write "called Christ" as in "before, now deceased", because the jews NEVER CALL ANYBODY MESSIAH/CHRIST who did not succeed and/or is dead.
It is an interpolation, very simple. Does nobody gets tired from this picking words or sentences out of texts, and talking endlessly about what they mean? This all without looking at the context of course. Some people believing literally every Christian forgery they find. Nobody ever heard of Christian interpolation? This is called a critical bible and history forum? I am already looking for months where this critical is (with the exception of some people). And history is not at all there, although history is the only way out of this. Names, dates, activities, facts, overview.
Josephas: "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James"
Re: Josephas: "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James"
Jews called people Christ [the anointed ] hundreds of years before the Jesus story was manufactured.cora wrote: How on earth could Josephus write "called Christ"?
King Saul was called Christ [the anointed] in the Septuagint.
Jesus called Christ [the anointed] the brother of James is not NT Jesus of Nazareth in Antiquities of the Jews 20.9.1.
Even Christian writers admit Jewish Kings and priest were called Christ [the anointed] due to the fact they were physically anointed with oil in Jewish customs on inauguration.
Josephus did claim that it was Vespasian who was the prophesied Messianic ruler, Savior and Benefactor.
Josephus' War of the Jews 3.9.8.
The next day Vespasian sent Trajan before with some horsemen to the citadel, to make trial of the multitude, whether they were all disposed for peace; and as soon as he knew that the people were of the same mind with the petitioner, he took his army, and went to the city; upon which the citizens opened to him their gates, and met him with acclamations of joy, and called him their savior and benefactor
Re: Josephas: "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James"
I know and agree with all that you write!!! Then who is this Jesus Christ/anointed Josephus is so-called writing about? It must be a king, or a high-priest, or a (never arriving) messiah. But Josephus is then not telling about him, although a Christ is very important.
Therefore I said that Josephus could not have written this, and it is a simple Christian interpolation. Which worked, since people are going on about it.
Therefore I said that Josephus could not have written this, and it is a simple Christian interpolation. Which worked, since people are going on about it.
Re: Josephas: "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James"
There are only two solutions for "Jesus, who was called Christ" in Antiquities of the Jews 20.9.1.cora wrote: ↑Mon Mar 15, 2021 5:50 pm I know and agree with all that you write!!! Then who is this Jesus Christ/anointed Josephus is so-called writing about? It must be a king, or a high-priest, or a (never arriving) messiah. But Josephus is then not telling about him, although a Christ is very important.
Therefore I said that Josephus could not have written this, and it is a simple Christian interpolation. Which worked, since people are going on about it.
"Jesus, who was called Christ [the anointed] is either Jesus the High Priest, the son of Damneus or the phrase is a forgery.
However, the very phrase, " the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James" in AJ 20.9.1 is evidence that the so-called Pauline Epistles were written at least after c 94 CE or after the 13th year of Domitian.
Re: Josephas: "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James"
Right. The son of Damneus was replaced/forged by who was called Christ. If you read the whole story very simple.
I don't know how you do it, but yes the letters of Paul were written after 90, could be 94.
And the brother of the Lord there is a forgery of course, after 90.
It is the "how many different Jameses can we find" game. Never heard of it?
I don't know how you do it, but yes the letters of Paul were written after 90, could be 94.
And the brother of the Lord there is a forgery of course, after 90.
It is the "how many different Jameses can we find" game. Never heard of it?
Re: Josephas: "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James"
hakeem wrote: ↑Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:24 amI am showing what Christian writers claimed.John2 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:03 pm... Christian writings claim James the Lord's brother was still alive c 68 CE or after the death of Peter which means James in Antiquities of the Jews 20.9.1 must have been some other person.
Where are you getting this c. 68 CE date from, and how do you know when Peter died?
A Christian writing states that Peter and Paul were killed in the 14th year of Nero who was Emperor c 54-68 CE.
De Viris Illustribus 5He then, in the fourteenth year of Nero on the same day with Peter, was beheaded at Rome for Christ's sake and was buried in the Ostian way, the twenty-seventh year after our Lord's passion.
Okay, but what "Christian writings claim James the Lord's brother was still alive" after the death of Peter?
I'm guessing you might be thinking of the remark in EH 2.23.18 that "immediately Vespasian besieged them" after James died, but as I noted above, the word that is translated as "immediately" doesn't always necessarily mean "immediately" and can mean "the next thing of importance that happened." As Hoogterp puts it:
What eutheos (and euthus) is not is "immediately". Immediate means no middle, and eutheos describes a straight line, which could be more aptly put as "directly", but always includes a middle. What is apparent through a casual look at the New Testament usages of this word is that Eutheos demands a middle, a time gap, the duration of which could be a few moments to hours, days, or even months or more! ... eutheos is apparently more concerned with sequence of events, rather than with timing.
https://books.google.com/books?id=e-m0A ... ly&f=false
Last edited by John2 on Wed Mar 17, 2021 7:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Josephas: "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James"
Also, Eastman notes in The Many Deaths of Peter and Paul:
Identifying the year or years of the apostolic deaths [of Peter and Paul] is even more challenging. The emperor Nero plays a prominent role in nearly all the accounts. Some leave the precise dates unstated, choosing simply to note that the apostles died during Nero's principate. Others assign the events to the end of Nero's reign ... Still more explicit are those authors who provide specific years ... These sources suggest dates as late as 67/69 CE, and as early as 55 CE ... basic questions about the deaths of Peter and Paul, in this case the date(s), have never had a single, clear answer.
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Th ... frontcover
Re: Josephas: "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James"
hakeem wrote:... Christian writings claim James the Lord's brother was still alive c 68 CE or after the death of Peter which means James in Antiquities of the Jews 20.9.1 must have been some other person.
It is claimed in the Preface to the Recognitions that Clement wrote a letter to James the Lord's brother after Peter was dead.John2 wrote: Where are you getting this c. 68 CE date from, and how do you know when Peter died?
Preface to the Recognitions
The epistle in which the same Clement, writing to James the Lord's brother, informs him of the death of Peter, and that he had left him his successor in his chair and teaching...
James in AJ 20.9.1 was stoned to death around c 63 CE and James the Lord's brother was alive up to c 68 CE or up to the fourteenth year of Nero.
The myth that "Jame"s in Antiquities of Jews 20.9.1 refers to "James the Lord brother" is blown out of the water.
And The Preface to the Recognitions also exposes that the Epistle called 1st Clement written c 95 CE must be a forgery since Clement is claimed to be bishop of Rome around c 68 CE.
Re: Josephas: "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James"
hakeem wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 7:50 pmhakeem wrote:... Christian writings claim James the Lord's brother was still alive c 68 CE or after the death of Peter which means James in Antiquities of the Jews 20.9.1 must have been some other person.It is claimed in the Preface to the Recognitions that Clement wrote a letter to James the Lord's brother after Peter was dead.John2 wrote: Where are you getting this c. 68 CE date from, and how do you know when Peter died?
Preface to the RecognitionsThe epistle in which the same Clement, writing to James the Lord's brother, informs him of the death of Peter, and that he had left him his successor in his chair and teaching...
James in AJ 20.9.1 was stoned to death around c 63 CE and James the Lord's brother was alive up to c 68 CE or up to the fourteenth year of Nero.
The myth that "Jame"s in Antiquities of Jews 20.9.1 refers to "James the Lord brother" is blown out of the water.
But Eastman notes that the sources for Peter's death "suggest dates as late as 67/69 CE, and as early as 55 CE ... basic questions about the deaths of Peter and Paul, in this case the date(s), have never had a single, clear answer."
And Rufinus goes on to say in his preface that the letter of Clement to James "is of later date" and thought by some to be "inconsistent" ("I have not prefixed to this work, both because it is of later date, and because I have already translated and published it. But I do not think it out of place to explain here what in that letter will perhaps seem to some to be inconsistent").
And while Painter acknowledges that "the time of the death of Peter ... cannot be fixed with any certainty," he is of the opinion that "Historically it is unlikely that Peter's martyrdom preceded that of James in 62 CE ..."
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Ju ... frontcover
I don't think there is enough certainty to say exactly when Peter died, but with James' death I think we are on firmer ground, since I don't see any inconsistency with what Christian sources say about it and what Josephus says.