Who is Luke?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
John2
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Re: Who is Luke?

Post by John2 »

Bernard Muller wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 8:09 pm About "Luke" medical terms:
https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archiv ... gy-in-luke

Cordially, Bernard
That is very interesting, Bernard. While 'medical' terms may be also used by others (as per Cadbury), there certainly is a lot of sickness and healing going on in Luke/Acts (which I'd never paid much attention to before).

This is all the more interesting given that Luke is mentioned with Epaphras (who I take to be Epaphroditus) and Timothy in Philemon and Colossians in light of what Paul says in Philippians 2:22-27:

But you know Timothy’s proven worth, that as a child with his father he has served with me to advance the gospel. So I hope to send him as soon as I see what happens with me. And I trust in the Lord that I myself will come soon.

But I thought it necessary to send back to you Epaphroditus, my brother, fellow worker, and fellow soldier, who is also your messenger and minister to my needs. For he has been longing for all of you and is distressed because you heard he was ill. He was sick indeed, nearly unto death. But God had mercy on him, and not only on him but also on me, to spare me sorrow upon sorrow.
John2
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Re: Who is Luke?

Post by John2 »

Cf. Col. 4:12-14:


Epaphras, who is one of you and a servant of Christ Jesus, sends you greetings. He is always wrestling in prayer for you, so that you may stand mature and fully assured in the full will of God. For I testify about him that he goes to great pains for you and for those at Laodicea and Hierapolis. Luke, the beloved physician, and Demas send you greetings.

"The name occurs very frequently in inscriptions both Greek and Latin, whether at full length Epaphroditus, or in its contracted form Epaphras.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epaphroditus
hakeem
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Re: Who is Luke?

Post by hakeem »

John2 wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 8:55 pm
Bernard Muller wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 8:09 pm About "Luke" medical terms:
https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archiv ... gy-in-luke

Cordially, Bernard
That is very interesting, Bernard. While 'medical' terms may be also used by others (as per Cadbury), there certainly is a lot of sickness and healing going on in Luke/Acts (which I'd never paid much attention to before).
I don't know if you are giving some kind of joke but it is already known that the character called Luke did not write gLuke or Acts. The claims about the name of the author and date of writing gLuke and Acts have been rejected by Scholars.

Luke the physician, the author of gLuke and Acts, is an invention.
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DCHindley
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Re: Who is Luke?

Post by DCHindley »

What I am finding interesting here is that so many people today imagine the kind of "physicians" in the 1st century CE are like medical doctors today (I'll include Osteopaths under the term "medical doctor").

Modern medical doctors go through four years of undergraduate college, four years of graduate level medical school, and four years or so of residency, and the primary aim is, besides to heal, set themselves up financially. They are thoroughly trained professionals. One does not see too many poor doctors, at last in "first world" western nations. That is why many physicians who receive their medical training in India or Asia, where it is significantly less expensive (although offering very little financial rewards in these regions), move west. More power to them, I say!

Yet in the 1st century, a "physician" was little more than a practical nurse and homeopath. Very few of them received any formal training in medicine, unless they studied at a temple to Asclepius or followed in the train of an established itinerant physician. Some went on to fame as skilled, Like Galen, but in general "medicine" in those days has a very BAD reputation. Many doctors were considered inept or just hucksters out to bilk sick folks out of their money. The advice given THEN was sometimes about as bad as modern gym teachers refusing to let overheated students drink cold water from a fountain, or the Amish treating all ailments with pine tar.

See HEILBRUNN TIMELINE OF ART HISTORY ESSAYS "Medicine in Classical Antiquity"
https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/medi/hd_medi.htm
From the earliest times, treatments involved incantations, invoking the gods, and the use of magical herbs, amulets, and charms. Drug sellers, root cutters, midwives, gymnastic trainers, and surgeons all offered medical treatment and advice. In the absence of formal qualifications, any individual could offer medical services, and literary evidence for early medical practice shows doctors working hard to distinguish their own ideas and treatments from those of their competitors.[bolding is mine]
Or this source: "Medical practice in Graeco-Roman antiquity" June 2006 Curationis 29(2):34-40
Authors: Louise Cilliers (University of the Free State) and Francois Pieter Retief
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... _antiquity
Medical training was by way of apprenticeship with recognized doctors, but no qualifying examinations existed and the standard of practice thus varied enormously. Even in the Roman era the vast majority of medical doctors were Greek and in private practice as itinerant physicians.[again, bolding is mine]
We also have modern misconceptions about ancient life, as if there was a relatively large "middle class." In fact, all "middle class" folks in those days were retainers for wealthy patrons, including slaves in positions of responsibility, and the proportion of the population who these two classes represented, was between 5-10% of the entire population.

DCH
John2
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Re: Who is Luke?

Post by John2 »

hakeem wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 8:33 am
I don't know if you are giving some kind of joke but it is already known that the character called Luke did not write gLuke or Acts. The claims about the name of the author and date of writing gLuke and Acts have been rejected by Scholars.

Luke the physician, the author of gLuke and Acts, is an invention.

I'm starting to think that there could be something to the first part given my new perspective on Colosssians possibly being written by someone who knew Paul and the Luke mentioned in Philemon 1:24 (Timothy) and Paul's reference to someone Luke and Timothy knew who had overcome a serous illness (Epaphroditus).

And while I suppose it can at best only ever be a suspicion (though I guess the same could be said for anyone else's guess), I'm starting to like the idea that someone from this Luke/Epaphroditus/Demas/Timothy/Aristarchus circle of people (and not just Epaphroditus) wrote or contributed to Luke and Acts.
Last edited by John2 on Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
rgprice
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Re: Who is Luke?

Post by rgprice »

Of course we'll never know. I think most of the figures in the NT are really just totally fictional props. Surely the Luke mentioned in Philemon was some real person, but beyond that the rest is all just fabrication and references. Luke was a name and that's about it.

I doubt seriously that Colossians was written by anyone with a personal association to Paul. The theology is very different. I wouldn't doubt that Colossians wasn't written until the 2nd century. Acts and Luke were probably written between 120 and 150, not by anyone who knew Paul.

2 Tim and the rest of the Pastoral were probably written by the author of Acts & Luke. The Luke + Acts + Pastorals combo is a major component of the NT, which sort of forms the backbone of the "authenticity" element of the work. This is also why these are likely among the latest works composed and may well have been designed for the total NT anthology.

If you haven't read David Trobisch's book, The First Edition of the NT, I highly recommend it. I just got it like a week ago, but it's really clarified a lot of things for me. It took a lot of ideas that were kind of unrelated and floating around gave them a real framework for me. The way he explains how the NT was (likely) edited together really illuminates the cohesive logic behind it all.
John2
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Re: Who is Luke?

Post by John2 »

rgprice wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:18 pm Of course we'll never know. I think most of the figures in the NT are really just totally fictional props. Surely the Luke mentioned in Philemon was some real person, but beyond that the rest is all just fabrication and references. Luke was a name and that's about it.

Not if there is anything to Colossians, and given that it mentions the same people as Philemon (and both are said to have been co-written by Timothy) and that I think Philemon is genuine (as do you, it appears), I'm willing to give it a fair shot as having been written by a follower of Paul like it says and see how everything shakes out (which so far seems plausible to me). And both were written early enough to have been used by Marcion.

I doubt seriously that Colossians was written by anyone with a personal association to Paul. The theology is very different. I wouldn't doubt that Colossians wasn't written until the 2nd century.



It doesn't seem very different to me, more like an expansion in the manner of Hebrews (which I see also interestingly mentions Timothy, so perhaps he and his circle had something to do with Hebrews as well).

If you haven't read David Trobisch's book, The First Edition of the NT, I highly recommend it. I just got it like a week ago, but it's really clarified a lot of things for me. It took a lot of ideas that were kind of unrelated and floating around gave them a real framework for me. The way he explains how the NT was (likely) edited together really illuminates the cohesive logic behind it all.

I will check out Trobisch.
Last edited by John2 on Wed Feb 10, 2021 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
hakeem
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Re: Who is Luke?

Post by hakeem »

rgprice wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:18 pm Of course we'll never know. I think most of the figures in the NT are really just totally fictional props. Surely the Luke mentioned in Philemon was some real person, but beyond that the rest is all just fabrication and references. Luke was a name and that's about it.
It is always the same -- NT characters associated with Paul are not real persons

If the Epistle to Philemon was really written a hundred years before Marcion then it is simply implausible that he [Marcion] would have used it.

Philemon has no theological value but just a letter of greetings by the supposed Paul to Philemon and other associates.

Philemon
1 Paul, a prisoner of Jesus Christ, and Timothy our brother, unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellowlabourer,

2 And to our beloved Apphia, and Archippus our fellowsoldier, and to the church in thy house:

3 Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

It makes no sense whatsoever for Marcion to use Philemon when all the characters mentioned in the Epistle would have already been dead up to hundred years earlier.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Who is Luke?

Post by MrMacSon »

rgprice wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:18 pm Of course we'll never know. I think most of the figures in the NT are really just totally fictional props. Surely the Luke mentioned in Philemon was some real person, but beyond that the rest is all just fabrication and references. Luke was a name and that's about it.
I've seen a proposition that writers of NT narratives used the names of other writers of NT narratives as characters in their books. Which might be hard to prove, but if that happened it would have created an interesting dynamic of group promotion or the like.
John2
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Re: Who is Luke?

Post by John2 »

Timothy is becoming interesting to me. There is at least more about him in Paul's letters than Luke. As noted on his Wikipedia page (and which I want to look into):

His relationship with Paul was close and Paul entrusted him with missions of great importance. Timothy's name appears as the co-author on 2 Corinthians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians, and Philemon. Paul wrote to the Philippians about Timothy, "I have no one like him" (Philippians 2:19–23). When Paul was in prison and awaiting martyrdom, he summoned his faithful friend Timothy for a last farewell.

That Timothy was jailed at least once during the period of the writing of the New Testament is implied by the writer of Hebrews mentioning Timothy's release at the end of the epistle.

Why have I never noticed that Timothy co-wrote so many of Paul's letters before? That makes him a very important figure and has made me re-consider the value of Colossians, and I want to take a new look at 2 Thessalonians and 1 and 2 Timothy in this light too (which, like Colossians, I was previously happy to disregard), not necessarily as being genuinely Pauline, but indicative of the importance of Timothy to early Christians.

And like Epaphroditus, he too is presented as suffering an illness (1 Tim. 5:23: "Stop drinking only water and use a little wine instead, because of your stomach and your frequent ailments"). So the "historical Luke" (the one mentioned in Philemon) knew at least two people who are said to have been ill, one of whom (Timothy) is said to have co-written Colossians, which calls Luke a physician.

And if nothing else, I think this is a very interesting circle of people.
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